Roundtable Discussion - July 8, 1998
Deborah
deborah@summerlands.com
Wed Jul 15 19:02:34 1998
Wednesday Night Roundtable Discussion*br*July 8, 1998*br*Led by:  Searles O’Dubhain*p*<GreyWolf> OD, do you get Discover magazine ??*p*<Searles> What does it have in it and does it have a website?*p*<GreyWolf> You might want to find the June 1998 issue, there is an article in that one called "Ancient Altered States"*p*<Searles> One of the things we are doing to improve your Summerlands experience is to start listing topics for these Celtic Roundtables...*p*<GreyWolf> Interesting approach to the old rock painting and carvings from a shamans point of view*p*<Searles> which means I'd like some inputs from present company about what you'd like to see. IMO the rock carving is all about speaking to the mind's subconscious anyway. Which means its non verbal-linguistic and much more about the things we hide from ourselves usually.*p*<GreyWolf> He does things like analyze the pics of hunters shooting sheep – *p*<Searles> In other words...it's all about the truths that we must discover about ourselves if we expect to change the realties around us. Otherwise, we are doomed to follow someone else's program.*p*<GreyWolf> says it symbolizes the entry into the supernatural in a trance, not a hunting party because in the SW the natives did not eat sheep, no archaeological evidence and it is in the ethnobiology as a journey entry*p*<Searles> What does he base that conclusion upon?*p*<Searles> I guess there were sheep that were native to the Southwest?*p*<GreyWolf> He has lots of good evidence and is convincing others. You might want to find this at the local library, I enjoyed the analysis he did*br*<Searles> I think one of the basic truths --- or untruths --- of life must be found in the shamanic state of consciousness. I'll look it up at the library right down the street.*p*<Taliesin_2> GreyWolf, what section was the article under?*p*<GreyWolf> He thinks that the shamans may have been practicing a form of lucid dreaming as well*p*<Searles> If the journeys of the shaman are true journeys, then did they encounter one another in their flight or not?*p*<GreyWolf> Features - article toele is - Ancient Altered States*p*<Searles> If they did, then did the Celtic shaman met an Inca shaman in the Otherworld?*br*<GreyWolf> He sees similarities in all cultures paintings*p*<Searles> If we view such journeys as lucid dreaming then they are a kind of accelerated simulation that the mind accomplishes to process data and predict the outcomes. After all, in our dreams we experience details much more vividly and in more variety than we can hope to visual with our consciousness processor alone.*p*<GreyWolf> The lucid dreaming is interesting because of the constantly repeating patterns in any given area,*p*<Searles> expand on that please*p*<GreyWolf> thought most of the shamans journeyed to the desert areas to get rain, and the patterns all show a similar nature*p*<Searles> Oh...this is in reference to the rock paintings/carving?*p*<GreyWolf> they went to dry areas as the opposite would exist in the altered state*p*<Searles> Ah....so the idea is that the physical world and the Otherworld must balance one another?*p*<GreyWolf> Yes, if one is dry, the other is damp/lush and you can attempt to bring some back. We should get copies around to read, I ran thru it at the Dr office yesterday at noon, and dug out my copy of the mag*p*<Searles> The entry points into this world being maybe at wells and springs then...demonstrating that the Otherworld is damp and wet.*p*<GreyWolf> Found it interesting in concepts*p*<Searles> I always enjoy anthropological analyses of shamanic experience. Somewhat along those lines ... let's discuss the fundamental Celtic ideas about the nature of reality ... picking a relatively simple topic to start us off :-) What were the Celtic ideas about a primary cause for instance?*p*<GreyWolf> uh huh*p*<Searles> <we're in exploring territory here folks...cauz their ain't any data and there are relatively few texts> This means we have to reach out a bit with our minds and our spirits to see what comes forth from the darkness. One answer might be as good as the next but I've got a few ideas of my own from various sources and experiences. Of course, entire cultures have a much better chance of providing complete answers to such questions since they've spent many lifetimes and multiple experiences verifying things that for us are perhaps abstract. Has everyone read Sean O'Tuathail paper on the concepts of Brig and Buas? It would help in the discussion that I am advancing.*p*<GreyWolf> Nope, have not read that*p*<Taliesin_2> Never heard of it. Is it good?*br*<Searles> to relate primal types of energy to the various states and steps of consciousness/reality perception that I hope to discuss and connect.*p*<Michael> I think I heard him once in a lecture, but I could be wrong.*p*<Searles> It's pretty good and can be found on the Imbas web site though I'll place a copy of it in the Public Library here as well.*p*<GreyWolf> Ah, can go there to get it *p*<Searles> I'll also include my own observations on these two forms of power. *p*<Taliesin_2> What is the URL for IMBAS?*p*<Searles> Basically O'Tuathail says that there were two concepts of power held by the ancient Druids: Briga and Buas.*p*<Taliesin_2> Yahoo has an outdated one*p*<GreyWolf> http://morrigan.alabanza.com/imbas/*p*<Taliesin_2> Thanks.*p*<Searles> Briga he defines as the magical power that is inherent in a person or a thing. It is its created birth reality.  This power does not change in anything...ergo to know the name of a thing is to know it and its power. If that were all there was to power then the world would be a static place.*p*<Michael> I know that one.  There are a group of Christians that believe the same think.  Must be something to it.*p*<Searles> Hence he also says that the Druids used a concept known as buas which is a power that can be increased or decreased in anything*p*<GreyWolf> I remember that in some cultures the true name of things was secret, to protect the power*p*<Searles> based upon some sort of external action...such as a spell or a ritual. Briga is a word that is also found in the name of Brighid. It means high or exalted. It's a measure of the potential that we each have to hold and wield power. Buas is more like the power of our configuration. If we change the way that we structure our works, or ourselves they are more efficient at performing works. The entire universe has  form of Briga, which is it potential to create, while the universe as we know it has laws governing how power flows which is a form of "Buas." Almost like a capacitor or other storage device in a circuit. The ancients are not known for their use of electricity (though they probably had it). The best analogy for such power that they used was perhaps to be found in their river goddesses and the lords of the mountains. Briga is a piece of iron ore. Buas is a sword made from that ore. One does not exist without another*p*<Taliesin_2> Yeah, but could they be the same?*p*<Searles> and perhaps one is a transformed version of another. In ourselves we can work such transformations. That's like saying are matter and energy the same? They are the same things in a different context. Can inherent power and acquired power be the same thing?*p*<Taliesin_2> Only if the acquire power comes from an inherent power?*p*<Searles> They can be put to the same uses and have the same effects but one renews itself through the framework of nature while the other is more a phenomena that is affected by action IMO. I have a hard time communicating this to myself sometimes :-)*p*<Taliesin_2> What is it called?*p*<Searles> It is my contention that Briga gives birth to Buas...while Buas makes us aware of Briga*p*<Taliesin_2> two sides of the same coin, then?*p*<TopazOwl> Briga being inherent power? I always get them mixed up. :-)*p*<Searles> One can exist without the other but it is the change between the two that allows for what we call reality. IMO*p*<Taliesin_2> Sounds more like a physics discussion, IMO. :)*p*<TopazOwl> It is interesting enough like physics, Tal.*p*<Searles> yes...briga = inherent; buas = acquired or manifested*p*<TopazOwl> So briga would be the power inherent in say, a waterfall...*p*<Searles> The question is...what regulates the change between the two forms of power*p*<TopazOwl> and turns to buas if I use it?*p*<Searles> (that is if we get past the questions regarding their description and existence) Yes Topaz...yet the briga of the waterfall is always there so long as there is water to fall. That is what makes it a waterfall.  IE?// were you here via the HTML link? If a waterfall can have such characteristics then all of being can also be expressed in such terms.*p*<TopazOwl> Was the same with me and physics -- concepts are understood but explaining them back is another story. :-)*p*<Searles> Where I am attempting to go in discussing briga and buas is toward a unifying concept between the notion of three physical-mental-spiritual worlds such as Land, Sea and Sky and an additional Otherworld, as well as an Abyss. I also hope to tie in the notions of ourselves as threefold beings who manifest in terms of energy centers known as cauldrons with the nature of the cauldrons being shaped from a mixture of briga and buas :-) If we take these concepts and define them against a background that is uniquely Celtic in terms of examples from the tales ... then we can hope to have a coherent Celtic Cosmology that is also a useful tool to be used in quantifying how we use the surrounding reality.*p*<GreyWolf> sorry don’t know about the book you asked about*br*<Searles> It is this structure that I believe to be the basis of a Druidoical education. That's where I am going with my thoughts right now. Each of us is a cauldron of briga and buas and we interrelate with the worlds through how those cauldrons are oriented. A question comes to my mind about determining how a cauldron is oriented  anyone with a good answer?*p* Taliesin_2 is thinking GW might want to consider stocking a physics book relating to the current discussion. :)*p*<Searles> We need a good Druid Physics book.*p*<TopazOwl> Fresh out of good answers tonight. :-)*p*<GreyWolf> There are some older physics/philosophy books I remember*p*<Searles> Cauldrons are how we make briga and we dispense buas...since briga is inherent to a thing's existence and buas is inherent to its structure*p*<Wolftich> what is the difference between druid physics and college physics????*p*<Searles> In working with power the important things IMO are to consider how to accumulate power and to distribute it.*p* Taliesin_2 hears the crickets in the background*p*<Searles> Druid physics is a matter of how one quantifies the power and defines the spaces in which t can manifest.*p*<Taliesin_2> Think you might get them for the SL Library??? They are Druid related/based?????*p*<Searles> College physics only considers the nature of power within the physical space while Druid physic considers how to work it in one domain so that it transforms itself into a result in a different domain.*p*<Wolftich> cool, thanks Searles*p*<Searles> This all goes back to defining and understanding that actual nature of reality to begin with. Which is what we are attempting to describe or discover in our far-ranging discussion. In my own searches I have traveled many pathways. The two primary pathways that have been productive for me have been the one of death and the other of experience.*p*<Taliesin_2> In other words, college physics could learn _A LOT_ from Druid physics. :)*p*<TopazOwl> Science will catch up someday to magick. :-)*p*<GreyWolf> Why Toast Lands Jelly-Side Down : Zen and the Art of Physics Demonstrations *p*<Searles> Experience has taught me to observe how things in a world relate to one another*p*<Taliesin_2> true. But not today.*p*<Wolftich> ?????? grey*p*<Searles> This is the world of Nature.*p*<GreyWolf> Zen Physics : The Science of Death, the Logic of Reincarnation *p*<Searles> That is what one learns a part of in universities and schools but we only learn the basics and we don't really pay attention to the details as they exist in the world around us. Paying attention is a Druidic tool for observing reality and learning its secrets.*p*<GreyWolf> Ah the one I was looking for **** The Tao of Physics : An Exploration of the Parallels Between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism *p*<Searles> This means paying attention to the things we expect and also to those we don't expect.*p*<Wolftich> kind of reminds me of something someone once said a person will run and stumble and not look to see what they have stumble on just keep going*p*<Searles> It is a discipline of the mind that does away with knee jerk reactions and considers all parts of a system to relate to one another.*br* *br*<GreyWolf> Another book *** Belonging to the Universe : Explorations on the Frontiers of Science and Spirituality*p*<Searles> I hope these books are listed in the Summerlands Bookstore?*p*<GreyWolf> They can be listed is wanted*p*<Jehana> sounds like a good book to me.*p*<Searles> Our reality can be said to be originated by Briga and Buas in patterns that give the appearance of Cosmic Intelligence.*p*<Wolftich> who are they???*p*<Searles> The Buas aspect is observable in the structure of observable reality while the Briga aspect is something that exists beyond the confines of observation alone.*p*<Taliesin_2> It’s what we're talking about*p*<TopazOwl> Appearance?*p*<Taliesin_2> in a nutshell*p*<Searles> The way in which the two relate is itself an intelligence that we are also a part of which means that we can determine briga and buas for ourselves if we have the right frame of reference. That frame of reference must come from a higher level directory than the one in which we now have experiences is my theory and experience. It's like an op level vs. a user level :-) How to get to such a place or level is the question...what are the URL's and where are those passwords? Fortunately for us....one of the early sysops and programmers left us some code. It's called the "Cauldron of Poesy"  and is a kind of top level look at reality programming by a master of words and images....Amergin White Knee. To me...that is a kind of concept work that says how reality is structured by showing us how we can contact the operative intelligence or wisdom of this reality.*p*<Taliesin_2> Why is he called Amergin White Knee?*p*<Searles> It defines the ways that we attain an altered state of awareness allowing us to break though the shell that has been placed around perception and creation. Good question...anyone with an answer?*p*<Taliesin_2> I thought he was a son of the Mil???*p*<TopazOwl> No answers -- always questions. :-)*p*<Taliesin_2> At least that is what it says in PBE's Mythology books...*p*<Searles> I've never seen an explanation for the name "White Knee"  though my thoughts are that it was probably a way of saying that he was "holy."  (at least that's my take on why the scribes would say such a thing about him).*p*<Searles> Amergin was a son of Mill according to the Leabhor Gabhalla which is pronounced "Yowler Gwhala" or thereabouts.*p*<TopazOwl> Searles, do you think the cauldrons are a mix of briga and buas, or one or the other holding some of one and the other?*p*<Searles> Anyway, my thinking on the topic of Druidic reality concepts was that they held the world to consist of Briga and buas and to manifest as action and form. The relationship between the two was spirit on many levels.  The ways in which we exhibit or form and their interactions are the three cauldrons and the nine duile which are the contents of the cauldrons :-) To align the cauldrons in the maximum peaked condition allows oneself to attain a higher state of consciousness and being*p*<Searles> which puts you in touch with higher wisdom and spirit*p*<TopazOwl> Which would be all three uprighted?*p*<Searles> From that place one can affect the ways that form and action relate to one another within the lower levels of reality.*p*<GreyWolf> Uprighted and Filled*p*<Wolftich> what three caldrons????*p*<Searles> The ins and outs of the various relationships would then be expressed in volumes and many tales of philosophy and technique. The three cauldrons of Goriath, Earnmae and Sois, which are also known as the Cauldrons of Warming, Vocation and Wisdom. These three centers of being parallel the existence of the Three Worlds of Sea, Land and Sky IMO. They are how the person relates to the Cosmos and their contents are the elements of everything which are called by Celts as "Duile."*p** TopazOwl thinking we need to write a story to remember these by*p*<Searles> It would be much easier to relate them wouldn't it?*p*<Taliesin_2> Or a song?*p*<TopazOwl> Yes it would.*p*<Taliesin_2> If not a rhyme. :)*p*<Searles> But there is a song....and it is called the Cauldron of Poesy.*p*<Wolftich> all good ideas*p*<TopazOwl> No, a story of the cauldrons and what each contains and how it gets there.*p*<Searles> Maybe how each was fashioned, filled and placed as well?*p*<Wolftich> Searles send the song over to us!!*p*<TopazOwl> I suppose it could rhyme. :-)*p*<Searles> That master of URL's GreyWolf probably has it in his "favorites."*p*<TopazOwl> Yes. The Cauldron of Poesy.*p*<Taliesin_2> Or tell it to Frinshay & let her write a draft?*p*<Searles> I think we should post it on the boards and then perhaps have the Bards make a new poem about it that would make it live in our own hearts.*p*<Wolftich> HEY GRAY do you think you could hook us up with this stuff???*p*<Searles> The language of Amergin is too far removed from how we now express ourselves.*p*<GreyWolf> http://www.madstone.com/cauldronofpoesy.html*p*<Taliesin_2> It’s also linked from the IMBAS site*p*<TopazOwl> Searles...tell me again which duile correspond to which cauldrons. As you see it.*p**br*<Searles> It's found in translation within _The Encyclopedia of Celtic Wisdom_ by John and Caitlin Matthews. That's one of the books that I recommend for a beginning study of Draiocht BTW. IMO the following relationships exist between the duile and the cauldrons. *p*Warming- Sea, Wind, Moon*br*Vocation - Stone, Land, Life*br*Wisdom - Sun, Stars, Sky*br*on a personal level this means that....*br*Warming = blood, breath, mind*br*Vocation = Bones, flesh, hair/skin*br*Wisdom = Brain, face, head*p*My typing needs a bit of work but these duile can be extrapolated from the relationships that the cauldrons have to one another and the affects that they have upon each other and themselves.*p*<Wolftich> what is the difference between the brain and the mind???? *p*<Searles> The world or fundamental qualities of Vedic wisdom are expressed in a similar manner.*p*<Taliesin_2> The brain is in your skull. Your mind is intellect.*p*<Searles> the brain is what you use to think with but the mind is what determines who you are*p*<TopazOwl> Okay...now, how would you relate briga and buas to these?*p*<Wolftich> okay I got it. Thanks*p*<Searles> I should have said intellect for brain and essence for mind. Mind is more intuitive than intellect though intellect could play host to intuition.*p*<Searles> Think of the relationship between sun and moon*p*<Michael> Brain would be inherent, were mind is not.*p*<Searles> Brain has a structure but mind has a flow the mind also runs our body in the autonomous mode while the brain attempts to run our lives in the compulsive mode. It is the difference between intuition and deduction.*p*<TopazOwl> Brain = function/Mind = thought.*p*<Searles> At times like these I try to pay attention to what each duile is saying.*p*<Searles> That's a good way of putting it.*p*<Wolftich> cool, simple too*p*<Searles> Thought the brain has thoughts...it is more like the CPU and the mind is the program. The stars are the op system*br*<TopazOwl> Hardware and software. :-)*p*<Searles> and the head or sky is the computer itself.*p*<Wolftich> Searles you can go back to the cauldrons now!!*p*<Searles> the cauldron of warming IMO is the place where maximum buas occurs because it is where flow is most easily accomplished that is why I always try to place it in the middle. It is the present ... the here and now. While vocation is where we have originated or how we have been formed or trained. It is our past. The vector formed by the two is our future, which is hopefully also our cauldron of wisdom. That is the Sky where humankind's destiny awaits...though the shape of that destiny will be determined buy how we have disciplined ourselves in the past and focused our attention in the present. I'm planning to write this all up in a more coherent fashion and post it to the AnDaire Draiochta board along with a few diagrams of the processes and their relationships to one another.*p*<TopazOwl> That would be most excellent.*p*<Searles> Hopefully the Bards and Seanchai' will tell a tale that lives in the mind more than these concept*p*<TopazOwl> No, these concepts are alive.*p*<Searles> Maybe a t a future time we can discuss and discover just how to make a cauldron that will be filled with the right mix of briga and buas to allow us to create our own beings within the greater being. I know that is the direction that my own explorations into being and Draiocht are taking me.*br*