Re: Druidic Ritual Searles Mon Aug 2 23:25:55 1999 DRUIDS' ASSEMBLY - JULY*p**** Log file opened: 7/21/99 8:01:13 PM*p*<kate> Hi Searles*br*<Treva> Hi Searles*br*<Searles> Hi folks....looks like I need to get op'ed*br*<kate> Just call us Kava*br*<ShadowHawk> Hello OD, good to see ya again! (g)*br*<LdyHarp> Hi OD*br*<ShadowHawk> Good Kate!*br*<ShadowHawk> I figured that he would show up when he'd sown some wild oats (g)*br*<ShadowHawk> Typical male ya know!*br*Taliesin_2 [~shane@dup-205-252-8-150.cais.net] has joined #summerlands*br*<ShadowHawk> Hello Tal*br*<kate> He's neutered, no oats here*br*<Treva> Evenin Tal*br*<kate> Hi Taliesin*br*<ShadowHawk> well he's thinking about oats anyway (g)*br*<Taliesin_2> Hail-fellow-well-met, all! :-)*br*<LdyHarp> hi Tal*br*<Searles> bear with me a minute...still fiddling around*br*<ShadowHawk> (remembers sitting at a nudist resort with OD watching the goddesses walk by....*br*<ShadowHawk> doesn't think he can bare much more than he has (g))*br*<Taliesin_2> Anybody got any idea where I can find data on the trees that make up the Ogham? I have a little bit, but am looking for more extensive info. BTW, I'm going to post a request on Airmid's msg board. :-)*br*<Taliesin_2> I also have data on them from a Runic perspective.*br*<ShadowHawk> what kind of info Tal?*br*<Taliesin_2> Anything & everything. :-)*br*Treva1 [~Treva@164.58.51.23] has joined #summerlands*br*Deborah [Deborah@user-33qt29t.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #summerlands*br*<ShadowHawk> too broad for me (wry grin)*br*CStar sets mode: +o Deborah *br*<Taliesin_2> Magickal & Mundane. :-)*br*<Treva1> Hi Deb*br*<kate> Hi Deborah!*br*<LdyHarp> HI Deb*br*Treva [~Treva@164.58.51.23] has quit IRC (Read error to Treva[164.58.51.23]: Connection reset by peer)*br*<ShadowHawk> if you were looking for info on the trees themselves all I could have suggested was perhaps Grave's book, "The White Goddess"*br*<Taliesin_2> Hail-fellow-well-met, Deborah & Treva! :-)*br*<Deborah> This is really Searles opping himself :-)*br*Deborah sets mode: +o Searles *br*<Taliesin_2> AH.*br*<ShadowHawk> and the battle of the trees to give you some info, but other than that, OD would be the Ogham expert*br*<kate> Though the White Goddess is complex for the beginner*br*<ShadowHawk> Searles you cross dresser you!*br*<Searles> OK that's better.*br*<kate> there are several good web sites that have some information*br*<Searles> You could just look in the Scholars Primer for the trees*br*<Searles> or you could look in The Summerlands Public Library.*br*<ShadowHawk> Scholar's Primer?*br*<Searles> Search on Ogham and see what you find.*br*<kate> The Celtic Lunar Zodiac is fun! by Helena Paterson*br*<Searles> The Scholar's Primer is a treatise in the Book of Ballymote on the Ogham*br*<kate> The Celtic Oracles also*br*<Searles> It was excerpted and translated in a work known as _Auraicept na E/ces_ by George Calder.*br*<Searles> This book was recently republished.*br*<Searles> It's basically what a young Filidh would have studied in the schools of the Filidh.*br*<ShadowHawk> (thanks, will see about finding it)*br*TopazOwl [topazowl@sA8-p25.dreamscape.com] has joined #summerlands*br*<Searles> The White Goddess is a poetical work by a modern poet who was being *creative* with his knowledge of the Ogham and the trees.*br*<kate> Hello!*br*<TopazOwl> Hi everybody. :-)*br*<Treva1> Slainte TopazOwl*br*<kate> How true!*br*<Taliesin_2> The Summerlands Public Library = Bruidhean Board Library?*br*<kate> Good reading, but not always accurate*br*<TopazOwl> Conas ta tu, a Threva?*br*<Searles> If you want some dry, scholarly work on the Ogham then Damian MacManus's _A Guide to Ogham_ might give you some information.*br*<Taliesin_2> Hail-fellow-well-met, TopazOwl! :-)*br*<LdyHarp> brb*br*<Searles> It really lacks in esoteric interpretations though it does give the meanings of the "Phrase Ogham"*br*<TopazOwl> Hiya Tal.*br*HawkOfShad [~shadowhaw@atl-qbu-zpb-vty98.as.wcom.net] has joined #summerlands*br*<Searles> Dagdai dhuit a topaz.*br*<TopazOwl> Dagdai agus Brighid dhuit, a Shearles.*br*ShadowHawk [~shadowhaw@atl-qbu-zpj-vty53.as.wcom.net] has quit IRC (Ping timeout for ShadowHawk[atl-qbu-zpj-vty53.as.wcom.net])*br*<LdyHarp> TO!!!*br*<HawkOfShad> I think I made it back?*br*<LdyHarp> *smoochehuggles**br*<Searles> The Ogham are the basis for the Secret Language of the Poets among other things.*br*<Searles> You might be here...but its all Maya :-)*br*<HawkOfShad> (laughing)*br*<HawkOfShad> I'm looking at a note that tells me I have quit IRC for ping timeout*br*<HawkOfShad> so I have some questions as to where my ping went! (g)*br*<TopazOwl> Hi Frinny! :-)*br*<Searles> I had thought to discuss what should be included in Celtic ritual but if everyone wants to talk about Ogham, I can do that just as well.*br*GreyWolf [gar@dialup184.tc5.roc.eznet.net] has joined #summerlands*br*<Searles> Greetings Gar*br*<GreyWolf> Hi, Full House I see*br*<TopazOwl> Evening GW.*br*<kate> welcome*br*<HawkOfShad> <- would be real interested in the ritual piece as well....*br*<LdyHarp> no no Searles, we all know how much you DONT like talking bout Ogham *giggle**br*<Taliesin_2> Hail-fellow-well-met, GreyWolf! :-)*br*<Treva1> Hi GreyWolf*br*<kate> No.no.. no, It's all dead leaves to me, please go on!*br*<HawkOfShad> Hello Grey*br*<HawkOfShad> (thinks OD is busy oiling his fingers)*br*<Searles> Well as to Ogham...*br*<Deborah> hi all*br*<HawkOfShad> Hello Deb!*br*Brathann [kanga2@host-209-214-62-131.ilm.bellsouth.net] has joined #summerlands*br*<Searles> They are the basis for the education of a Fili or a Drui regarding the knowledge of the tribe and the traditions.*br*<Treva1> Hi Brathann*br*<TopazOwl> Bandia dhuit, a Bhrathann.*br*<Searles> Welcome aboard Brathann... hope your ritual went well for you and your family.*br*<TopazOwl> Hope you got my note in time.*br*<Brathann> Thank you very much! sorry to interrupt, but thanks to you both, TO and Searles, for everything. All went very well..*br*<TopazOwl> I'm very sorry for your loss.*br*<Searles> The Ogham were among the first things taught in the schools of the Filidh and the Draiothe.*br*<Deborah> Hey Brathann*br*<Brathann> Thank you TO...*br*<Brathann> Hello Deborah*br*<Searles> Hope that you were able to ease Ziggy's passing for him and for your family.*br*<kate> So how would you apply them to a Celtic Ritual? The Ogham*br*<Brathann> Yes....and I know he'll be back again...*br*<Searles> In a sense the Ogham are the spiritual power of sound confined to form within language.*br*<Searles> As such, they are almost a language of mantras and in some cases they are forms resembling yantras and mandalas.*br*<TopazOwl> Brathann, he will. :-)*br*<Searles> Might not be a cat though :-)*br*<Brathann> Yeah, I know :-))*br*<LdyHarp> I scratch Oghams on offering with my intentions*br*<Searles> Anyway...the Ogham are the sounds, tones, letters, metrics and kennings of the Oldest forms of Irish.*br*<HawkOfShad> Were they only in Ireland? What did the Druids use in England, Scotland (etc?)*br*<kate> However, some of us are not Irish, Scottish here..*br*<Searles> They are like the Runes in a sense, a gift from the God of Eloquence and rediscovered by the Wise for use in working esoteric incantation.*br*<kate> The druids were late comers to Scotland*br*<Searles> The Ogham have been found in Scotland, Man, Brittany, Wales and Ireland.*br*<kate> Yes, but, the early Scots were not Druidic*br*<Searles> Some friends from Portugal tell me they are also found in Portugal though I haven't seen any examples.*br*<Searles> The Picts and the Scots were both reported to have Druids.*br*<Taliesin_2> Actually I think it was St Columba(?) who brought the Druids to Scotland. Not sure though, kate.*br*<Searles> The Dalriadans especially.*br*<kate> only after the Celtic invasion*br*<Searles> There are examples of Pictish Ogham that are difficult to decipher.*br*<kate> not based on the original tree Oghams of the druids*br*<Searles> When Columba got there he did battle with the Druids of the Pictish king Bruide.*br*<Searles> According to the tales that is.*br*<Taliesin_2> So I am assuming there is more than one form of Ogham? Irish, Scottish & Brythonic????*br*<kate> ay, St Columbia, another import*br*<Taliesin_2> Or Welsh?*br*<Searles> There were 150 Oghams taught in the schools of the Filidh.*br*<Taliesin_2> Oy.*br*<Searles> About a 100 varieties are preserved in The Book of Ballymote.*br*<Searles> The Ogham are primarily associated with Gaelic culture.*br*DebbieG [DebbieG@ip134.monroe2.la.pub-ip.psi.net] has joined #summerlands*br*CStar sets mode: +o DebbieG *br*<Treva1> Were the different Oghams from different clans?*br*<Treva1> Hi DebbieG*br*<DebbieG> Evenin, Treva1 <g>.*br*<kate> not in Scotland*br*<Brathann> Hey Deb...*br*<Searles> Ogham was the teaching of the learned and was reserved to their use. It was not a possession of the clanns.*br*<kate> however, people in the later ages, made personal associations with the imported knowledge*br*<DebbieG> Hi, Brathann! Greetings all... sorry I'm late.*br*DebbieG sets mode: -o DebbieG *br*<Searles> Perhaps kate can tell us about the culture of Scotland before the Gael came to it?*br*<kate> have several days do you?*br*<Searles> Sure*br*<TopazOwl> Sure. :-)*br*<Searles> Several lifetimes even.*br*<HawkOfShad> (chuckling)*br*<kate> the original inhabitant, aboriginal Picts that is, *br*<Taliesin_2> Hail-fellow-well-met, DebbieG! :-)*br*<Taliesin_2> Hail-fellow-well-met, Brathann! :-)*br*<kate> survived thru several waves of newcomers*br*<kate> the Irish, of Neil of the Nine Hostages, the Celtic Druids,*br*Searles thinks they sound a lot like the Irish*br*<kate> and the Norse*br*<TopazOwl> The Celtic Druids? Certainly they do.*br*<kate> do to this, a lot of the current associated beliefs have been amalgamated*br*<TopazOwl> The Scots came first as allies of the Picts, however.*br*<TopazOwl> The Irish, I mean.*br*<Searles> The name Scot is derived from an earlier name for the Irish.*br*<TopazOwl> Who were to become the Scots. <g>*br*<kate> Actually, going far enough back the Irish were the Picts and Scots were the Scots*br*<kate> but somewhere in history...*br*<TopazOwl> Is this documented somewhere where I could read it?*br*<kate> the Irish became the Irish and Scots the Picts*br*<kate> yes, I am looking for the name of the book, *br*LdyHarp is now totally confused*br*<HawkOfShad> Kate, if I remember right....*br*<kate> A j maculloch did a very good thesis on this*br*<HawkOfShad> the Picts were originally in southern England/Wales...*br*<HawkOfShad> migrated to Ireland...*br*<HawkOfShad> then got pushed to Scotland...*br*<Deborah> The Irish married into the Picts, but they weren't the Picts*br*<Deborah> two different groups of people*br*<HawkOfShad> by various other cultures, that's why they were Irish before winding up in Scotland?*br*<kate> so, I take it Scotland was uninhabited before then? :)~*br*<TopazOwl> No, the Picts lived there.*br*<kate> I rest my case*br*<TopazOwl> The Picts were not Irish.*br*<Searles> I'd enjoy reading it as it would give me something to contrast the information from the other books I've read.*br*LdyHarp wonders where the Picts came from*br*<TopazOwl> The Scot Gaels were Irish.*br*<kate> at one point, the Irish were called Picts*br*<TopazOwl> No, the Irish themselves called the Picts the Cruithne.*br*<Searles> At one point a tribe of Irish went to Alba to settle and these were the Cruithne.*br*<Searles> Who were called Picts.*br*<TopazOwl> They were not Gaels though, as far as I know.*br*<kate> everybody at least once!!*br*<Searles> The Irish were also called Scots after Scotia wife of Miled*br*<Searles> the leader of the Gael.*br*<LdyHarp> brb all*br*<kate> yes, now you got it*br*<kate> but it's not the name or what they were called that counts*br*<kate> it is the cultures they established that speak for themselves*br*<Searles> But the original inhabitants of Ireland were known as Scots*br*<kate> yes we agree*br*<Searles> The people in Scotland before the arrival of the Celts/Gael were Bell-Beaker people just like those in Ireland*br*<kate> but they were Picts before that*br*<kate> by genetics not name*br*<Searles> What happened after that was a cultural revolution in Ireland and in Scotland.*br*TopazOwl is now known as Owlbeback*br*<Searles> Genetically, I'd think that Scots and Irish would be very similar*br*<kate> in Scotland, the merging of Alpen Scotta began a new history there*br*<Searles> and according to their genealogies they are very related.*br*<kate> the Picts*br*<Searles> That's why I can be a member of the Clann MacNeill*br*<Searles> though my ancestors were O'Neals on that side of the family.*br*LdyHarp [harpsong@1Cust71.tnt3.redmond.wa.da.uu.net] has quit IRC (Ping timeout for LdyHarp[1Cust71.tnt3.redmond.wa.da.uu.net])*br*<kate> and if you can claim that, then you can be a Lomont too*br*<HawkOfShad> Kate, can you put a timeline on what you are talking about?*br*<kate> yes*br*<kate> hold, finding the eyes*br*<HawkOfShad> and what's a Lomont?*br*<Searles> Lamont Cranston...the Shadow?:-)*br*<HawkOfShad> (scratching head, wonders who Lamont Cranston is now (g))*br*<Brathann> LOL*br*<kate> it's Lamont, deriving from Laumont chief in the Cowal district of Argyll, c1238-c1294*br*<kate> son of Aodh O'Neill, King of Northern Ireland*br*<kate> He was also grandson of Ferchar, descended from Anrothan*br*<HawkOfShad> Any luck on that Pictish timeline?*br*<kate> How far back do you want to go?*br*<Searles> From what I can, see Pictish documented history is first begun with the Romans noticing them beating the tar out of their troops every now and again.*br*<HawkOfShad> beats me, I have no frame of reference for it, Picts throughout the UK to being displaced*br*<HawkOfShad> into Scotland?*br*<Deborah> I wish Jehana was here... she's or resident Pictspert*br*<Owlbeback> Well, I have "The Picts and the Scots" on my lap right now. :-)*br*Owlbeback is now known as TopazOwl*br*<kate> Well, in the 500's , the Scotta made their first alliances with the Scottish Picts*br*<Searles> That time period also coincides with exchanges between Iron Age Ireland and Scotland...separated by a mere 235 miles of the Irish Sea.*br*<kate> and?*br*<Searles> In the 4th Century Niall of the Nine Hostages raided in Scotland...after all he got on eof his nine hostages from there :-)*br*<TopazOwl> Actually, the shortest sea route between Scotland and Northeast Ireland is less than 25 miles.*br*Treva1 [~Treva@164.58.51.23] has quit IRC (Ping timeout for Treva1[164.58.51.23])*br*<HawkOfShad> kate was that 500 bc or CE?*br*<Searles> Imeant35 miles a typo of huge proportions.*br*<TopazOwl> The Picts' first documented appearance was in Classical literature, by Eumenius in AD 297.*br*morrigant [~hethoran@216.76.215.93] has joined #summerlands*br*kate [~hethoran@216.76.215.177] has quit IRC (Ping timeout for kate[216.76.215.177])*br*<Deborah> hi Morrigant*br*<TopazOwl> Evening morrigant.*br*<morrigant> I have returned as the morrigant!!!1*br*<Deborah> welcome*br*<Deborah> ahhhh*br*<morrigant> was kate*br*<Deborah> Kate is that you in Morrigan drag?*br*<HawkOfShad> Hello Priestess*br*<morrigant> that is I ~!!!!*br*<Searles> Actually Agricola encountered them in the 1stcenturyand called them Caledonians.*br*<TopazOwl> The next reference to the Picts is in the 4th Century.*br*<TopazOwl> Yes, they certainly existed before 297.*br*<morrigant> and Hercules before that, in myth*br*<Searles> I agree with you that around the middle of the 4th century they were called "Picts" by the Romans.*br*<morrigant> correct*br*<TopazOwl> They comprised at least two main tribal groups, the Caledonii and the Maeatae.*br*<morrigant> and there are tombs in Scotland that date back to 3800 bc*br*<Searles> True and the same for Ireland of course.*br*<Searles> In fact, my people the O'Dubhains were chiefs of an area containing one of them, known as Knowth nowadays.*br*<TopazOwl> Of course, but those would be classified as being from a proto-Celtic people.*br*<Searles> It just goes to show you that the Scots and the Irish have much in common.*br*<morrigant> I come from the Earls of Athol, the high Pictish kings of Scotland, *br*<TopazOwl> That's because the Scots were the Irish. :-)*br*<morrigant> that and 5 cents.....*br*<Searles> Their ancient ancestors were similar and they both flourished within Celtic culture.*br*<HawkOfShad> (laughing)*br*<TopazOwl> Well, they're all Irish then and nothing more to say. <g>*br*<morrigant> me too*br*<morrigant> signed kava*br*<morrigant> don't tell a Scotsman that!*br*<HawkOfShad> Morrigant, want to explain the kava?*br*<morrigant> nope*br*<HawkOfShad> (laughing)*br*<morrigant> us too*br*<morrigant> Have we finished with who came first, the chicken or the egg?*br*<HawkOfShad> (raising hand)*br*<Searles> Well now that we've established that the Scots and the Irish are a wondrous people with an ancient history, some of which is disputed, where does that leave us?*br*Taliesin_2 is SOOOOOOO happy. Rikki Lake is on in the bg. Time to change the channel, methinks.*br*<HawkOfShad> Ummmm, OD, about Celtic Ritual....*br*<HawkOfShad> what's good to include in it?*br*<morrigant> lets talk about Celtic ritual*br*<TopazOwl> Celtic stuff. :-)*br*<Searles> Well for starters it should include three things.*br*<Searles> It should include a connection with the ancestors, the people and the gods.*br*<TopazOwl> Ancestors, Nature Spirits, and Gods.*br*<morrigant> how about the threshold guardians?*br*<TopazOwl> Do not forget the world around us, my friend. :-)*br*<Searles> I consider nature spirits to be divided into ancestors, people and gods.*br*<TopazOwl> Indeed? Hmm.*br*<morrigant> the gods wouldn't be happy to hear that*br*<TopazOwl> So you are using People as monkey people, rabbit people, etc?*br*<morrigant> not that they are separate from nature*br*<TopazOwl> Tree people?*br*<TopazOwl> Faery people?*br*<Searles> Why wouldn't the gods be happy to hear that they are a part of nature?*br*<TopazOwl> Grandfathers?*br*<morrigant> why don't we all agree, we play with a whole slue of people*br*<Searles> Animal people Plant people.*br*<TopazOwl> Okay, just checking. :-)*br*<morrigant> ay, not that they are separate from nature I said*br*GreyWolf is now known as werewolf*br*<Searles> Well I don't understand your previous remark then.*br*<Searles> The gods have a sense of humor...that I know.*br*<morrigant> just that they are more inclusive than that*br*<Searles> And generally they are happy if being who you are is happiness (which I think it is).*br*<HawkOfShad> Searles, that's something interesting....*br*<HawkOfShad> could it be that Ireland is a gentler country than Scotland, and so the Gods are more playful*br*Taliesin_2 is now known as TalAFK*br*<Searles> Perhaps you should tell us how the gods are.*br*<HawkOfShad> than the Scottish ones including a sense of humor?*br*<morrigant> Scotland is a harsher land*br*<TopazOwl> The Scottish Gods and the Irish Gods are one and the same pantheon!*br*<Deborah> oh I don't know... there's a reason they call them 'dour Scots' <GGG>*br*<morrigant> with many of it's own unique beliefs and ideas*br*<HawkOfShad> Ok, then perhaps a more basic question of you learned scholars?*br*<Searles> I'm astounded.*br*<morrigant> and though they may be different than yours/Irish, their beliefs, the Scottish are indeed mine*br*<HawkOfShad> Can we really discuss something like, "Celtic Ritual" if Celtic covers such a wide area with so many differences?*br*<TopazOwl> What are you astounded about Searles?*br*<Searles> That the Scottish gods and the Irish Pagan gods might be considered to be different.*br*<TopazOwl> Oh, yes, well...see above.*br*<Searles> They might have a few different names but the deities are pretty much the same ones, same names and same types.*br*<morrigant> as to topazowl's comment regarding the same gods of Irish and Scots:*br*werewolf is now known as GreyWolf*br*<morrigant> the differences are more distinctive in the earlier cultures and myths*br*<Searles> Shad> we can discuss Celtic ritual right after we discuss what it means to be Celtic which has been an on going discussion in these parts and pretty well understood by most.*br*<TopazOwl> What myths do you retain that do not mention folks like the Cailleach and Fionn mac Cumhal?*br*Brathann [kanga2@host-209-214-62-131.ilm.bellsouth.net] has quit IRC (Ping timeout for Brathann[host-209-214-62-131.ilm.bellsouth.net])*br*<morrigant> how about the hethoran?*br*<TopazOwl> Is not Brighid a favorite among the Scots as well?*br*<Searles> The Scottish versions of the tales are a little different but they're based on the same original tales.*br*<morrigant> many of the later gods*br*Brathann [kanga2@host-209-214-62-131.ilm.bellsouth.net] has joined #summerlands*br*<HawkOfShad> Searles, what elements do the Irish have...*br*<morrigant> share commonalties*br*<HawkOfShad> and then maybe we can get morrigant to tell us the elements of the Scottish trad she practices...*br*<DebbieG> Rehi, Brathann!*br*<HawkOfShad> and we can see similarities and differences?*br*<TopazOwl> Being both Irish and Scottish myself, I don't see a whole lot of difference, to tell you the truth.*br*Brathann [kanga2@host-209-214-62-131.ilm.bellsouth.net] has quit IRC (WilliamsLake.BC.CA.StarLink-IRC.org Rochester.MI.US.StarLink-IRC.Org)*br*HawkOfShad [~shadowhaw@atl-qbu-zpb-vty98.as.wcom.net] has quit IRC (WilliamsLake.BC.CA.StarLink-IRC.org Rochester.MI.US.StarLink-IRC.Org)*br*TalAFK [~shane@dup-205-252-8-150.cais.net] has quit IRC (WilliamsLake.BC.CA.StarLink-IRC.org Rochester.MI.US.StarLink-IRC.Org)*br*<Deborah> Kate... what is the hethoran?*br*<Deborah> oops*br*<Deborah> there's goes the old websplit again*br*<Deborah> hang on everybody and let our MIAs find they way back here*br*<morrigant> it is a creation myth of the Scots and what clan chieftains aspired to*br*TalAFK [~shane@dup-205-252-8-150.cais.net] has joined #summerlands*br*HawkOfShad [~shadowhaw@atl-qbu-zpb-vty98.as.wcom.net] has joined #summerlands*br*<morrigant> the 'Fire Song'*br*Brathann [kanga2@host-209-214-62-131.ilm.bellsouth.net] has joined #summerlands*br*TopazOwl is now known as Owlbeback*br*<HawkOfShad> Welcome back oh Travelers*br*<Deborah> and here they are now <G>*br*<DebbieG> <g>*br*<HawkOfShad> looks like 6 of you got knocked off at one time!*br*<HawkOfShad> Not sure if you saw my question or not...*br*<Deborah> to us, it looked like you three got knocked off <G>*br*<Deborah> what question is that?*br*<HawkOfShad> Deb, I'm looking at a list of notes that said you all have quit IRC, and then several joins where you came back in...*br*<HawkOfShad> strange and marvelous are the ways of the great computer!*br*<Deborah> yup*br*<Deborah> we saw the same thing*br*<Deborah> but it said you three had left and come back*br*<Brathann> Yeah..I stayed here also <G> But then again..it's a parallel dimension, eh?*br*<Deborah> oh the joys of websplit <G>*br*<HawkOfShad> I asked if OD would tell us about Irish elements of Ritual and then perhaps Morrigant can tell us about*br*<HawkOfShad> Scottish from her trad, and that way we can see the differences and similarities*br*<HawkOfShad> between two different flavors of Celt.*br*<morrigant> sounds good to me*br*<Searles> I wasn't planning to cast Irish ritual in concrete this evening. I was looking forward to more of a brainstorming session so that we could arrive at a ritual format that would work for us here in The Summerlands.*br*<morrigant> Searles, are you here?*br*<HawkOfShad> Searles?*br*<Deborah> he's typing*br*Owlbeback is now known as TopazOwl*br*<morrigant> please continue..Searles*br*<Searles> I'm also not so sure that a person could establish that a ritual is authentic in the first place without doing a lot of preliminary work*br*<HawkOfShad> Searles, what might an Irish Druid do for a typical ritual?*br*<Searles> to show where it came from, how it was practiced through the ages and what each part of it meant within a cultural context*br*<Searles> as well as the esoteric and exoteric parts of it.*br*<Searles> There would also be the matter of the gods honored and the words used.*br*<Searles> An Irish Druid would get with his students to begin with*br*<Searles> and assign each of them a part in the ritual based on their abilities.*br*<Searles> He would approach the ritual as a structure containing 4/5 parts, nine elements and three ways of being.*br*<Searles> To begin the ritual there would be a call to the ritual place*br*<Searles> a horn or bells*br*<Searles> and there would be chanting as the attendees came to attend*br*<Searles> circumnavigating the ritual site nine times.*br*<Searles> At that point the purpose of the ritual would be announced and explained.*br*<HawkOfShad> Was it reserved only for Druids or were the locals involved?*br*<Searles> The ritual space would be connected to the worlds through a synchronizing of the nine elements and an offering.*br*<Searles> The three world would be addressed and a tale from the traditions would be told or chanted.*br*<Searles> At that point the object of the ritual would be presented*br*<Searles> whether that was a sacrifice, an offering, a construction a person who would journey, a divination or what would depend.*br*<Searles> At that point they would go to the gods in a form of singing and chanting*br*<Searles> offerings made, futures foretold, workings accomplished.*br*<Searles> Following this working the prayers of the people and the blessings of the gods would be given. At6he completion the imbas of the ritual would be revealed and the people would retire to feasting, drinking giving oaths and boasts and affirmations all night long.*br*<TopazOwl> Sounds like a proper Irish ritual to me. :-)*br*<HawkOfShad> looks good to me! (g)*br*<Searles> The answer to your question is that yes and no and sometimes.*br*<Brathann> Very effective as well.*br*<morrigant> if you are an Irish druid that is :)*br*<Searles> But of course.*br*<morrigant> I must admit, you've got it going on there, Searles*br*Beirdd [Beirdd@209-130-201-76.nas-2.MON.frontiernet.net] has joined #summerlands*br*<TopazOwl> Evening Beirdd!*br*<Beirdd> Hi Owl !*br*<Beirdd> Good evening, all...*br*<GreyWolf> Hi Beirdd*br*<Deborah> hey Beirdd... welcome*br*<Brathann> Good evening Beirdd*br*<Beirdd> Just passing through on the way to my next class...*br*<HawkOfShad> OD, may morrigant proceed?*br*<Searles> Ta/ fa/ilte romhat a Bheirdd*br*<TopazOwl> I guess! You've been scarce! :-)*br*<DebbieG> Evenin, Beirdd!*br*<Searles> Sure fire away I'd be interested in hearing her tradition*br*<GreyWolf> I heading out everyone, have a good evening.*br*<Deborah> night Grey*br*<morrigant> I fear the traditions of the highland are much more simplistic than that of the Irish Druid*br*<Deborah> sweet Dreams*br*<TopazOwl> Night GW.*br*GreyWolf [gar@dialup184.tc5.roc.eznet.net] has left #summerlands*br*<morrigant> Scottish Ritual/Rites are based on the acts of kinsmanship*br*<morrigant> one's connection to the land the waters, and the winds*br*<morrigant> as well as the multi-dimensional layers of spirit*br*TalAFK is now known as Taliesin_2*br*<morrigant> these rituals have been enacted from the earliest of times*br*<morrigant> each with it's own purpose usually based on seasonal needs*br*<morrigant> and each person in the community, knowing their place*br*<Taliesin_2> Hail-fellow-well-met, Beirdd! :-)*br*<morrigant> and what that place means in the totality of the rites*br*<morrigant> every ritual/rite is different... dependant on the season in which it is enacted*br*<TopazOwl> The same with ours.*br*<HawkOfShad> ?*br*<HawkOfShad> Morrigant, in Ireland with the druids I would imagine that there was some similarity*br*<HawkOfShad> all over while in Scotland were they more individual based on location and clan?*br*<morrigant> the layers of spirituality, are developed through a procession of nine steps*br*<morrigant> though they are not based on elemental associations*br*<morrigant> these are more totemic in nature*br*<morrigant> to be used as a method of passing through what is known there as the thresholds*br*<morrigant> the thresholds are divided into three basic layers*br*<morrigant> more individualistic work is based on clan traditions and locations*br*<HawkOfShad> what are the layers of the thresholds, or would the question rather be what are the thresholds?*br*<morrigant> the threshold are the pathways that one travels in the Magickal realms*br*<morrigant> they can lead either to the (Underworld) for lack of a better word*br*<morrigant> the Upperworlds, and the Shadowlands*br*<morrigant> they believe all spirits dwell within these realms,*br*<morrigant> that of the tree people, the faery people, etc*br*<morrigant> many of their Rites/Rituals are based on blooding*br*<morrigant> by this blooding, whether it be that which is let for the land*br*<morrigant> or that which binds one in kinsmanship with another*br*<morrigant> through either self sacrifice*br*<morrigant> Ritual sacrifice*br*<morrigant> or Rites of Kinsmanship as well as ancestral genetics*br*<morrigant> many of the individualistic clan workings*br*<morrigant> still remain secret to those clans as it should be*br*Beirdd [Beirdd@209-130-201-76.nas-2.MON.frontiernet.net] has left #summerlands*br*<morrigant> questions?*br*<TopazOwl> Rather sounds like much of what the individual practices.*br*<TopazOwl> IN my tradition, anyway.*br*<morrigant> good*br*<HawkOfShad> What is the Shadowlands?*br*<TopazOwl> Not for large Druidic rituals, however. :-)*br*<morrigant> how does one explain a concept in words....that extends beyond human vocabulary*br*<Searles> When I said elements before I meant Du/ile which are not exactly elements but more like elemental qualities of a person and the Cosmos.*br*<morrigant> it is the land that our ancestors exist in*br*<TopazOwl> Yes, we do not do the Greek element thing. :-)*br*<HawkOfShad> morrigant, you start with a word (s)*br*<morrigant> that the spiritual layers of ourselves exist in*br*<morrigant> It is a place of multi-dimensional, non-linear time*br*<Searles> We exist in nine ways in three worlds as Celts*br*<TopazOwl> Annwfn?*br*<Searles> The interactions of these world and ways are what connect us to all that is and everyone else.*br*<Searles> I think she is talking about a place that is more intermediate than the not-place.*br*<morrigant> yes we do*br*<TopazOwl> Oh, okay.*br*<morrigant> In the occult schools, they would call it "the greater school of knowledge"*br*<morrigant> that which cannot be learned here*br*<TopazOwl> I must find my bed, folks.*br*<Deborah> night Sis*br*<Deborah> take care*br* Druidic Ritual Searles 503 Mon Aug 2 23:22:44 1999