Re: Druids Awaken! A Call to Arms :-)
TopazOwl

Wed Aug  2 17:02:36 2000
     Okay, now I'm going to go down through here as I find the time and answer these. I will say from the outset that there *are* some places where I agree with Tay, but she seems to in some places to not be addressing the actual subject of the FAQ that she is responding to and in others ignoring the fact that there is a great deal more that could be said on the specifics that aren't because it is a basic, simple FAQ on a website. :-)*p*: I mean you no *br*: disrespect nor harm in doing so.*p*: We mean not to slander or *br*: cause harm to the Henge of Keltria or it's members. This is *br*: simply an example of a traditionalist Pagan's viewpoint as *br*: compared to that of a 'neopagan'."*p*     Twice she says that, and yet the tone of her responses betrays her.*p*: "Why do you call it Druidism? What is it that qualifies *br*: any of you as Draoi? We are all simply Gaels, children of *br*: Scotta. Not one of us knows the true way of the Draoi, *br*: therefore none are qualified to suppose or make commentary *br*: on their practices."*p*     Of course she doesn't know the true ways of Draoi, if she isn't one of them. :-) That she, and most of the rest of us are Gaels goes without saying.*p*: "If you are truly pagan, then you are a reborn in these *br*: modern times. That makes nothing you do new/neo, this makes *br*: that which you practice ancient/old ways. Therefore, one *br*: should not ascribe the prefix neo to anything dealing with *br*: direct ancestry. The term neo should only be ascribed to *br*: religions and belief systems created within this century *br*: i.e. Wicca or Satanism."*p*     I agree that some of us are reborn into this modern time, and that some things we are doing are not new, but this life is and our circumstances are. Our approaches are perhaps not the same, either. Whether or not the term "neo" should only be applied to religions created within this century is quite a matter of opinion, as we shall see that most of her rant is...her opinion only.*p*     I myself do not call myself a NeoDruid or a NeoPagan, but then, I don't call myself a Pagan either. I am a Druid, or Drui, if she insists. :-)*p*: "No, they were not called Druids, if called anything at *br*: all it was Draoi. *p*     Yes, they were called Druids by the classical writers. I recall distinctly seeing the word "druides" in a quote from a Latin writer. They are also called Druids in the English translations. At the moment I don't have time to look up my sources for this, but I know where they are. (Piggot and Ellis are two that I can think of offhand.)*p*     Likely they *were* called Draoi in Irish, but the language on the website is English. :-)*p*: There is no evidence to support that the *br*: Gaels had a priestly caste much to the contrary, they had a *br*: strong belief in free *br*: will thus, they would have needed no one to meditate the *br*: Gods for them. *p*     There is actually a great deal of evidence, and from the insular sources, that Druids were the mediators between the people and the Gods, and therefore, some could be considered priests, though no one actually called them such.*p*: The Draoi on the other hand, were the learned *br*: caste. These were the judges, doctors, lawyers, healers, *br*: musicians, and various other professional classes. They all *br*: seemed to be trained in the arts of divination, sacrificial *br*: rites, ritual and so forth. *p*     Exactly. The intelligentsia. The learned class, the Aes Dana, a class which Tay herself readily includes among those trained in sacrificial (religious) rites -- priests. I also question the use of the word "caste" above, as they really weren't a caste as one might think of the rigid caste system from India. There was mobility in and out of the classes in the ancient Celtic world.*p*: But that which Pliny the Elder *br*: was speaking of as for the period of training of a Draoi, *br*: was as per the specialty that the particular Draoi was being *br*: trained in. *p*     Indeed. I wonder what this has to do with what was said in the Keltria FAQ, which only states the training period as "up to 20 years." :-)*p*: If he/she was a physician, lawyer and so forth, *br*: then there were those who were the bardic classes, who must *br*: know the meters, having assigned to them so many meters of *br*: verse to memorize within the span of a year and a day. These *br*: last few where the genealogists of the Draoi, those few had *br*: the great tasks of keeping the histories of their peoples *br*: committed to memory in order to pass it to the future *br*: generation and in order that a Brehon might be able to call *br*: upon this particular Draoi in the course of a case in order *br*: to recite the verses of his people, that the court might *br*: know the reach of the law in the case of penalty, as the law *br*: sometimes *br*: reached into four generations of a family in order to pay *br*: the debt of 1 of it's members."*p*     She makes it seem like the Brehons or the Bards weren't included in that class she names called Draoi. :-)*p*     It is my considered opinion that the Druids were all trained in the same things up to a certain point, and *then* went into specialization. Rather like a PhD.*p*     One other point I would like to make here is the fact that we shouldn't totally *ignore* the classical sources or assume that men like Pliny the Elder, Julius Ceasar, Diodorus, Strabo, et. all, were *lying*, but rather, use their evidence as appropriately supported by the insular sources.*p*: <Who were the Druids? *br*:*br*: The word Druid may derive from an Indo-European word Drus, *br*: meaning "oak," and the Indo-European wid, meaning *br*: "to know". Literally, Druid means 'to know the *br*: oak'. The ancient*br*: Druids did not have many buildings for worship. The *br*: classical writers noted that the Druids' preferred *br*: sanctuaries were forest clearings.>*br*:*br*: "No, this is another supposition from Greek and Latin, *br*: seemingly not related to the true meaning of the word in *br*: Gaelic. The word Druid in Gaelic doesn't even come close to *br*: that of Draoi. The word Draoicht in Gaelic means: magician. *br*: You will not find "wid" in the Gaelic as there is *br*: no "w" to be found in the language. *p**br*     I guess she missed the part where it says "Indo-European," not "Gaelic." And actually, the word "Druid," from the Latin and Greek, likely means something like "great knowledge."*br*   *p*: The word Druid *br*: in the Gaelic language means: to close, or to draw nigh. So *br*: you can see where the confusion with the language and the *br*: so-called modern, scholars butt heads on the facts."*p*     No, I can't see any confusion except Tay's. Because "Druid" is not from the Gaelic, as she herself stated, but from the Greek. Draoi is indeed the word for Druid in the Irish.*p*: <Although the Celts existed throughout much of Europe, *br*: the Druids were known to exist only in what is called the *br*: latter Celtic range. This area is basically Gaul and the *br*: British Isles.>*br*:*br*: "Where is this coming from? The Irish lore is replete *br*: with instances of the Draoi. For instance, Cathabadh, Mog *br*: Ruith, Talesin, Amergain... and so on... These were all *br*: great Draoi, a few *br*: that some now see as Gods. Mog Ruith made himself a God and *br*: was accepted by the Tuatha de Danaan.. What are you *br*: reading?"*p*     Once again, Tay shows her ignorance by not understanding what "the latter Celtic range" actually means. The Draoi she names are all *from* the "latter Celtic range"...namely, Wales and Ireland!*p*: <The priestly class of these Celts were on an equal level *br*: with nobility. They included the Druids (priests), Bards *br*: (poets and musicians) and Seers (diviners). The Druids were *br*: held above *br*: Bards and Seers, and according to Caesar, had authority in *br*: peace and war.>*br*:*br*: "Again, your caste system is straight from Caesar, *br*: Pliny, Posidoneous etc... This has been proven wrong again *br*: and again by the actual lore. Ollamh was the highest class. *br*: There was no caste called Druid."*p*     Actually, the classes of Druids listed above are directly from Strabo, and are supported by the insular literature. They are also (as referenced above) supported by Ceasar, who lived among the Gauls. Ollamh means "master," and is used in reference to one who has mastered any art. The word "ollamh" today in Irish means "professor."*p*     More to come as I find the time to address it. :-)*p*Leigh
Druids Awaken! A Call to Arms :-)
TopazOwl
633
Wed Aug  2 12:52:39 2000