Continuing... TopazOwl Wed Aug 2 20:59:15 2000 Picking up where I left off:*p*: <The Druids met in caves, deep in the woods, and in *br*: buildings for study and training that could last as long as *br*: 20 years. All the Druidic teachings were orally transmitted, *br*: so little is known about their teachings.>*br*:*br*: "Uhmmmm... where are you getting this? *p* From Diodorus? From every book that was ever written on Druids?*p*: This is clearly *br*: from the modern and complete supposition. *p* Hardly. It is from classical evidence. It is from Stuart Piggot. It is from Ellis. It is from Rees & Rees. It is from EVERYBODY.*p*: Look to the *br*: dialogues between Columba and the Druid, St. Patrick and *br*: Oissan. *p* I can't respond to this because I have no idea why she is pointing to these early Irish Christian stories in this context. ;-)*br*Oh, perhaps it has to do with the so-called "Druid books..."*p*: The orally transmitted tradition is even *br*: questionable because of clear evidence within the ancient *br*: writings of the early Celtic Christian Church, that there *br*: were some burnings of Sacred texts of the ancient pagan *br*: peoples of Celtic Europe by not only the Church but by the *br*: Roman armies."*p* I'd like to see this "clear evidence." *p*: <How do we know about the Druids? *br*:*br*: Knowledge of the Druids, and the ancient Celts in general, *br*: is found from direct archaeological evidence, from the *br*: writings of classical authors in Greece and Rome, and from *br*: folklore transcribed by 12th c. Christian scribes and *br*: scholars.>*br*:*br*: "Ok, now why is most of your faq involving itself only *br*: with that which was written by Roman invaders when you have *br*: valid archeological and anthropological evidence as well as *br*: word of mouth folklore within the genealogies of the clanns *br*: themselves? Why are you not looking to the Clan societies *br*: for some of your information as well?"*p* Hmmm. The FAQ seems to involve itself with the three branches of evidence, not just the classical, and this is stated above within the FAQ itself.*p* As far as Clan Societies...you mean like CnG? <g> Ha!*p* Keltrian Druids of Celtic descent are often members of such "Clan Societies," actually, or Irish-American Cultural Societies where appropriate to their lineage, so I don't know where the impetus for this question comes from besides Tay's own delusional little mind.*p*: <Was Stonehenge built by the Druids? *br*:*br*: No, the Celts didn't expand into Britain until between the *br*: 5th to 3rd c. BCE. Stonehenge was completed by about 1600 *br*: BCE. The Druids however, did have enough astronomical *br*: knowledge to realize the significance of Stonehenge. They *br*: may have used Stonehenge, at least for observational *br*: purposes, although there is no clear evidence to support *br*: this.>*br*:*br*: "Very good."*p* Oh, we actually scored a point in Tay's little private world of dead Draoi??? Sheesh.*p*: <Was sacrifice practiced by the Druids? *br*:*br*: The ancient Celts practiced sacrifice. It was written that *br*: the Druids were required to be present for all public *br*: sacrifices. Caesar described huge wicker works that were *br*: filled with grains, animals and humans and then burned. *br*: Other classical writers described sacrifice by stabbing and *br*: impaling.>*br*:*br*: "Again, the infamous "wicker man" theory. *p* Yes, and see also that it adds "other classical writers describe sacrifice by stabbing and impaling"? Or did we conveniently miss that part, too?*p*: Again, from the point of view of a man that found our people *br*: to be barbaric in their actions. This from a man whose *br*: country's greatest past time was to turn loose lions on *br*: gladiators in the coliseum on Sundays for a fight to the *br*: death. What a way to treat your most prized champions, *br*: eh?"*p* No one questions that Julius Ceasar had political and military motives. The idea of a large wicker burning is questioned by everyone with any sense and any Celtic history under their belts. It does not, however, alter the fact that it was described in the classical writing, which is all the above paragraph from the FAQ points out.*p*: <There has been a wide range of opinion about sacrifice *br*: and its significance to the Druids. Caesar was attempting to *br*: show the brutality of the Celts, while some scholars compare *br*: these sacrifices to modern executions.>*p**br*: "Even to the modern scholars, there are those that *br*: recognize the cosmological significance of human and animal *br*: sacrifice. Bone/stone, blood/water, skin/earth, mind/cloud, *br*: spirit/sky, hair/plant life and grasses. Replenishment of *br*: the cosmos through sacrifice was seen as necessary in almost *br*: every ancient culture. Replacement of that which was taken *br*: throughout the year by the tribes."*p* Here we have Tay now *endorsing* sacrifice when a moment ago she was condemning our FAQ based on the fact that we said that Ceasar said the Celts practiced sacrifice. I wish she'd make up her mind. *p*: <The answer probably lies somewhere between these two. *br*: The ancient Celts believed strongly in reincarnation. They *br*: did not fear death as most people in our culture do, because *br*: they knew that their souls would live again in another body. *br*: The Celts were described as having used criminals and *br*: political prisoners for sacrifice whenever possible. In the *br*: cultural context of the ancient Celtic people, sacrifice may *br*: have been the best possible treatment for these people.>*br*:*br*: "See Talesin to refute reincarnation in simple human *br*: form. The Celts believed in rebirth in many forms. I am a *br*: wave of the sea.. And so forth. It was believed that we are *br*: reborn in many forms that we may better understand the order *br*: of the cosmos. Not exclusively human, and the human being *br*: sometimes the least of our incarnations."*p* I am hard-pressed to find where this passage even *applies* to what was said in the FAQ. Tay's personal view of reincarnation doesn't really fit here, nor can she be certain that most Keltrians don't also view it in a similar fashion. She must have been on a roll and once she'd begun, she found herself just having to address every damn word, whether it was actually applicable or not. :-) *p*: <Do the Keltrian Druids practice human or animal *br*: sacrifice? *br*:*br*: No, we don't. Over the centuries, religious thought has *br*: evolved. During the time of the Ancient Druids, blood *br*: sacrifice was seen as a powerful way of contacting the Gods. *br*: Today we recognize blood as a symbol representing the power *br*: that exists within all of us. In modern practice, we replace *br*: blood sacrifice with another representation of our power. We *br*: use grain, herbs, a small piece of handiwork, or other *br*: positive representation of our devotion to the Gods.>*br*:*br*: "Ok, this is a personal choice. Although, I see no *br*: problem with one raising their animals in order for *br*: sacrifice or for sharing the bounty of the meat with their *br*: family and the ancestors as a *br*: symbolic sacrifice and possibly, burning what is left or *br*: offering in a votive deposit the remains, in order to *br*: fulfill the cosmological requirement. What I am left *br*: wondering here is, by your statement above, are you taking a *br*: stand against animal sacrifice as well?"*p* I wonder why she would misconstrue that sort of question out of this lovely paragraph. I see no problem with meat-eaters raising animals and slaughtering them in a far more humane manner (that is, IF they know what they are doing -- my biggest fear is that they don't, but think they do). People still *do* raise their own meat animals sometimes where I'm from. I think if you can stomach it, it;s an excellent alternative and protest to inhumane factory slaughter. But what Tay doesn't get (as evidenced by her statement about burning the remains of a sacrifice) is that the animal was sacrificed so that the people might *share* the bounty with the Gods. In other words, the prime bits were given to the Gods and the people ATE the rest of it.*p* But I digress, and run the risk of becoming as incoherent as Tay if I continue. :-) Point being, if the FAQ does not state explicitly that Keltria has come out against animal sacrifice, there is no reason to assume that we have taken a stand one way or the other on the subject. Our members are individuals.*p* More to follow. <g>*p*Leigh Druids Awaken! A Call to Arms :-) TopazOwl 633 Wed Aug 2 12:52:39 2000