Onward... TopazOwl Thu Aug 3 12:02:27 2000 : <They see Divinity in many places such as mountains, *br*: rivers, and the wind. This idea, that inanimate objects are *br*: in some way living is called animism. Keltrian Druids are *br*: animistic at least to the level where they see the Divine *br*: within plant life.>*br*:*br*: "I don't know that I agree with the term animistic and *br*: all that the definition of that word entails. *p* Does it really matter that Tay disagrees with an accepted anthropological term? ;-)*p*: You see, *br*: that's like calling us all shamanistic, the point is that *br*: this simply isn't so. *p* Um, no it isn't. (I'm having a hard time figuring out why she's now *identifying* with Keltrian Druids when she's been stating absolutely all along that there are no modern Druids and she is not one. Why would she now suddenly turn to the word "us" as if she is included in the description?)*p* The fact of the matter is, I do not see how she equates animism with shamanism, nor did we say anything of the sort in our FAQ.*p*: Shamanism being a word for the *br*: otherworld journeyers of the Siberian Tungus tribes, is one *br*: word which you will never see me apply to anything of Celtic *br*: nature, simply because the word does not belong to the *br*: Gaelic language, nor the Welsh, and never has. *p* Duh! Again, where does the FAQ say anything about shamanism???*p*: I think you *br*: mean something as per totems in your usage of the word *br*: animistic as well and that bothers me, as it does not fit *br*: into the cultural system of the ancient Gaels, at least not *br*: in the way you are interpreting it. *p* Again, where did the FAQ say anything about totems?*p* However, let's take that thought about totems a minute and go with it.*p*: Many animals are found *br*: in Celtic lore, but they usually symbolize something other *br*: than that which could be construed as totemic. Such as Dogs *br*: in the lore symbolize healing and death. *p* And I suppose that is why Cuchulainn (the hound of Cu, not his real name but a name given to him which he was known by ever after) had a geasa (taboo) placed upon him against eating dog meat that when broken ultimately caused his downfall? Because it *wasn't* his totem?*p* Many Celtic families were identified with animals and these may have been totem animals, as evidenced by their surnames or by other information gleaned from the old tales. Names like MacLennen and Mac Tyre both mean "son of the wolf," and MacMillian means "son of the wolf servant." King Cormac of Ireland was raised by wolves, and it was said of him that a pack of wolves accompanied him wherever he went even after he was made king. The name of Fionn mac Cumhail's son, Oisin, means "little deer." The inhabitants of Connaught are said to be descended from men with the heads of hounds. The Scottish clans of MacIntosh, Mac Neishe and MacNicol held the cat as their totem animal, and one Irish king was called Caibar cinn chait - "Carbar of the cat's head."*p* The Gods had special and sometimes representative animals as well.*p* Do I need to go on?*p**br*: Do you see where I *br*: am going with this? *p* I certainly do, but I think we've taken care of the misdirection above. :-)*p*: We believe that we can be reborn into *br*: the shape of animals, even shapeshift into the form of an *br*: animal while journeying, but totem animals were not part of *br*: the scheme within Celtic lore or lifestyles. We knew when we *br*: felt a kinship, that we had once been that animal, that *br*: explained to us any vast knowledge on the habits of that *br*: particular animal that we might have and*br*: nothing further played into it. Think of the Swans of Lir, *br*: or the Crane Bag (Aoife), these weren't totems, they were *br*: actual shapeshifting journeys."*p* Here is another place that Tay demonstrates her *opinion* only. While I agree with her in some instances (such as shapeshifting into animals while journeying -- and hey, if that isn't a shamanic technique what is? -- but I do not agree that just because we feel a kinship that we have actually been that animal in another life.)*p* Her examples of the children of Lir becoming swans: the reason that happened was clearly because of Druid magic (it is stated that it was performed with a Druid wand), not because of a cycle of death and rebirth. They were transformed, and it could very well have *been* a shapeshifting journey. In considering what she's saying, I'm not exactly certain that she quite understands what a totem animal actually is. So, I will explain. *p* There are at least three different types of animal spirit that we must distinguish between before we can discuss the animal spirits further. The first is the animal in the physical world. This is the spirit or individual soul of a living animal that we may encounter out in nature or even keep in our homes. While they each have the specific qualities of every animal of its type, these individual animals also have distinct personalities that are as unique as the individual. The second is the power animal, which is an animal that exists in spirit form in the Otherworld, and sometimes visits us in this world to allow us to utilize its special power, which is the special attribute or attributes of all of its kind. Power animals can teach us, guide us, provide inspiration, or give us needed energy. The third is known as a totem animal. The totem animal is an animal spirit with which we may develop a special bond or relationship over a period of time working with that power animal. *p*: <What are the other beliefs of Keltrian Druidism? *br*:*br*: The following set of statements encompass the major points *br*: of our values and worldview: We believe in Divinity as it is *br*: manifest in the Pantheon. There are several valid theistic *br*: perceptions of this Pantheon.>*br*:*br*: "Such as? *p* Why do we need to give examples? Isn't this FAQ already long enough? :-)*p*: As I see it there are at least five sectors *br*: of invader that can be seen as ancestral gods. Not only the *br*: Tuatha de Danaan (which is my pantheon) but, the Fomorii , *br*: the Firbolg, the Partholons, the Nemedians, the Milesians. *br*: Make that six, eh? There are over 400 deities in the *br*: Indo-European Pantheons. I'm not poking at you with this *br*: statement, basically I am agreeing with you here, I would *br*: just like to see your examples."*p* Actually, the statement isn't referring to *which* gods we believe are valid, it is referring to *how* we view deity. We honor the Tuatha de Danann ("Danaan" is now considered a mispelling by most Celtic scholars) as our main pantheon, incidentally. However, what is meant by this statement is that animism, polytheism, pan-polytheism, and any other number of "-isms" are all valid Keltrian approaches to the divine. The statement does say "theistic perceptions," after all.*p*: <We believe that nature is the embodiment of the *br*: Gods.>*br*:*br*: "As are we."*p* That goes without saying, as humans are also part of Nature.*p*: <We believe that all life is sacred and should neither be *br*: harmed nor taken without deliberation or regard.>*br*:*br*: "Ok, that's a given, but what about circumstances when *br*: it should be taken?"*p* She wants us to go into our various and complex moral codes in a FAQ???*p*: <We believe in the immortality of the spirit.>*br*:*br*: "Not reincarnation. Are you stating the difference here *br*: or is this combined with soul in your view? See to me, every *br*: movement, every waking breath is spirit, thus *br*: spiritual."*p* Some Keltrians believe in reincarnation. Some Keltrians don't. We do, however, all believe that the soul/spirit is immortal -- just as the ancient Druids did.*p*: <We believe that our purpose is to gain wisdom through *br*: experience.>*br*:*br*: "Ok, so hopefully that means you won't take my *br*: disagreements as meanspirited and see the experience through *br*: my eyes without regards to feelings as a new way to *br*: experience the Gaels."*p* Her disagreements *are* meanspirited, as can be seen when she frequently veers off course to make innane points that are not relevant to the subject at hand.*p* Tay has every right to her own experiences, as we all do. But I don't see any Keltrians going to her website and specifically picking apart any FAQ she might have, blathering a great many misunderstandings about it, and posting it on our website.*br* *br*: <We believe that learning is an ongoing process and *br*: should be fostered at all ages.>*br*:*br*: "I agree"*p* Then she will certainly take what I am saying here in response to her response as just another learning experience, and actually learn from it.*p**br*: <We believe that morality should be a matter of personal *br*: conviction based upon self respect and respect for *br*: others.>*br*:*br*: "Again agreed"*p* Then why did she ask for specifics earlier?*br*:*br*: <We believe that individuals have the right to pursue *br*: enlightenment through his or her chosen path.>*br*:*br*: "As long as it doesn't defame and defile the truth of *br*: the cultural history of the path they are pursuing as I *br*: believe strongly, Wicca has done to the Celtic and Native *br*: American Cultural experience."*p* No argument here. There are, however, things a simple Celt may not understand about the path of the Draoi (not being one), as we have demonstrated in this response. *p*: <We believe in a living religion able to adapt to a *br*: changing environment. We recognize that our beliefs may *br*: undergo change as our tradition grows.>*br*:*br*: "I don't see mine as a religion, too many nasty *br*: connotations with that 'R' word, more I see it as a way of *br*: life. A tradition to be cherished and passed to future *br*: generations."*p* Unfortunately, all too many reactionary Pagans cringe at the "R" word because of bad experiences with their previously held religious institution. Be that as it may, a religion *should* be a way of life, something that is a very large part of tradition and culture and actually defines it, and that is what mine is to me. I won't throw away the usefulness of the word because it bothers someone to use it as it is intended to be used.*p* More to come, of course. <g>*p*Leigh Druids Awaken! A Call to Arms :-) TopazOwl 633 Wed Aug 2 12:52:39 2000