AfterChat: Abbey Chat 10/20/99 Beirdd Tue Nov 2 18:33:54 1999 The following is a transcript of the "AfterChat" of the Abbey Chat of 10/20/99. The interesting discussion continued in a less formal manner once the "official" portion of the presentation and chat were done. *p*It would be nice to see more of our many Summerlands denizens, neighbors, and friends at chats like this one and the many others happening regularly in the Summerlands! Your contribution is very desired!*p*--Beirdd*p*---------------------AfterChat: Abbey Chat 10/20/99-----------------------*p*Deborah: what is Michaelmas? Or did I miss it in the presentation somewhere?*br*Beirdd: Michaelmas is the feast of St. Michael and the Archangels, Sept. 29...*br*Beirdd: a favorite of the Irish monks.*br*Deborah: also got another question (big suprise there)*br*Beirdd: sure*br*TopazOwl: It has been suggested by scholars that Lugh became St. Michael.*br*Beirdd: I have heard that...although Michael is a biblical angel, appearing in the Old Testament as the protector of Israel*br*Beirdd: But the Celts may have seen a similarity*br*Beirdd: GA deb*br*Deborah: on this yearly confession issue. Would it not be more a case of making an atonement for a misdeed (even up to killing oneself if that was demanded by a blood price) more than a case of asking forgiveness. My first thought when I heard the yearly atonement was of the Jewish Yom Kipur. ga*br*Beirdd: The yearly thing was really a discipline than a need...often you might not find a priest to hear your confession more than once a year living out in the countryside...*br*Beirdd: it was a way of "legislating" a discipline...*br*LdyHarp: !*br*Beirdd: in other words, if we don't tell you to go, you might forget to go for your own good.*br*Beirdd: And the focus was actually on penance as a neccesary respopnsibility of the penitent, than the reception of forgiveness from God and the community, which was a given.*br*Beirdd: That's why it was originally done in public.*br*Deborah: ok... that makes sense. It just struck me a little strange, in that what I know of our 'adze headed' ancestors, they were much more likely to walk into the family gathering and say, 'I screwed up and this is how, and this is what I did to fix it, it's over and done... pass the haunch of beef down this way' than asking somebody to intercede and 'fix it/forgive it'. ga*br*Beirdd: (And people complain about having to go to one priest! Could you imagine the alternative?)*br*Beirdd: yes...it was really the Irish monks that turned it into a private experience...*br*Beirdd: while making penances very heavy...at least for themselves.*br*Deborah: got to remember to thank them in my prayers tonight <WEG>*br*Beirdd: The penitentials always gave a break to laypeople.*br*Beirdd: LOL*br*Beirdd: In essence, they made the confession private and the penance public.*br*Beirdd: Frin?*br*TopazOwl: So, one could be doing penance and no one would know why?*br*Beirdd: Exactly...and it was none of their business.*br*LdyHarp: my Ma lived in a very small town in the mountins of NM*br*Deborah: yes, they are interesting to read. Jenny has posted some of the ones for witchcraft over in the Hall of Remembrance*br** TopazOwl thinks she likes that idea*br*LdyHarp: and she was baptized and confirmed at the same time as a baby because they never knew when the bishop would be there again*br*Beirdd: yes, exactly*br*TopazOwl: Wow.*br*LdyHarp: she was like 3 weeks old *br*Beirdd: the people would gather in Church on Sunday for prayers, but without a priest, no Mass.*br*Deborah: that was kind of what they used to do with the Brehons at Lughnasadh wasnt it? *br*Deborah: save up all the 'judging that needed doing' until then and do it all at one time*br*Beirdd: yes...they were circuit judges*br*Searles: !*br*LdyHarp: she said when their Priest died they had that too, mass confessions when a Priest came to town*br*Beirdd: yes Searles*br*Searles: In the Episcopal Church, such a service *br*Searles: could be lead by the lay readers...even a sermon... so long as it was written by the priest.*br*Searles: ga*br*Beirdd: Well...in a Catholic Church, lay people could do a service also. A Deacon could deliver consecrated host from elsewhere and he and lay ministers coould distribute communion without a MAss.*br*Beirdd: That was the original role of the deacon in the Church.*br*LdyHarp: er I mean mass absolutions*br*Deborah: ?*br*Beirdd: A mass absolution can only be done in cases of emergency or extreme need, and people are required to confess as individuals the first chance they get.*br*TopazOwl: My mother is going to be a eucharistic minister, and deliver the host to the shutins.*br*Beirdd: Lot's of confusion on that in the U.S.*br*Beirdd: People took it as a way out of individual confession, which it wasn't.*br*LdyHarp: she said it happened one winter when they had much snow and a hard time getting in or out*br*Beirdd: Yes, the deacons and eucharistic ministers were the favorite target of the Romans...*br*Beirdd: lots of them got martyred trying to deliver communion.*br*Beirdd: That would do it, Frin :-)*br*TopazOwl: Uh-oh...don't say that.*br*TopazOwl: It didn't happen that way. <g>*br*TopazOwl: Only the Pagans were persecuted Beirdd!*br*Beirdd: :-)*br*TopazOwl: Okay, Ill shut up now.*br*Beirdd: Troublemaker...*br*TopazOwl: Heehee.*br*Deborah: I have a really tacky question, and I dont know how to phrase it 'politically correctly'. Do we have any knowledge about what the celts thought about 'eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ?' I know there are many cannibalistic societies that are totally down with the practice, but the closest I ever heard about in Celtic ways was drinking a common cup from the skull of an honored enemy.*br*Beirdd: Oops...Deb?*br*LdyHarp: she is but we love her*br*Deborah: ga*br*Deborah: yes she is and yes we do <G>*br** TopazOwl laughs heartily*br*Beirdd: Hmm...the fact of its mystery do doubt helped wherever it went in the world...*br*Beirdd: It still tastes like bread and wine but actually is Christ's body and blood...*br*Beirdd: kind of like saying "One God in Three persons."*br*Beirdd: It canonly be taken on faith...never understood.*br*TopazOwl: Yeah, that Catholicism, full of Mysteries.*br*LdyHarp: there is a 15 year sober alcoholic Bard we all know who can take the communion wine *br*Deborah: understood. I've taken Baptist communion plenty of times (they're too uptight for real wine... they use grapejuice <G>)*br*LdyHarp: with no ill affect*br*Beirdd: I know people like that, too, Frin. It's amazing.*br*TopazOwl: You know frin, that's wonderful.*br*LdyHarp: It is *br*TopazOwl: I think my mother avoids the wine.*br*LdyHarp: I felt like I was witnessing a miracle*br*Deborah: it's different when it's used correctly. People get in trouble with that stuff (and tobacco and other things) when they use the Sacred in a Secular manner*br*LdyHarp: and it was the first time I had ever had the wine myself*br*TopazOwl: All things in moderation. :-)*br*Beirdd: I have witnessed lunatics (or demonically obssessed persons, depending on your vocabulary)*br*Beirdd: recognize the difference between a consecrated and unconsecrated host.*br*Beirdd: yes, Deb...good point*br*Deborah: they're usually more wide open to spirit than the average joe (probably one reason they're a bit lunatic if you ask me) *br*Beirdd: yes :-)*br*LdyHarp: I kinda was shocked when he took the wine, but it was ok*br*Deborah: perfect example is that I've NEVER heard of anyone having a 'bad trip' when using peyote with the proper respect in a Native American Church service. But there are sure some folks that have been whacked out using peyote as a recreational drug*br*TopazOwl: That's so true.*br*Beirdd: Pardon the source, but it's that whole "Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." thing...*br*Beirdd: what we do for pure spiritual reasons permits us to accomplish miracles.*br*TopazOwl: Indeed.*br*Deborah: that's a good source you got there <G>*br*Beirdd: LOL*br*LdyHarp: Beirdd I was so grateful for the experiences too, it was the first time in long years that I really "felt" the magic of the Consecration*br*Deborah: it's true. Tobacco smoked in secular ways causes cancer. Tobacco smoked as prayer is heard as prayer. How can communing with God ever hurt one?*br*Beirdd: exactly*br** Searles thinks that Christian churches do well when their focus is on spirit.*br*TopazOwl: I wonder why we lose that.*br** Deborah thinks they've got good music too <G>*br*Deborah: that's the part I realllllly miss the most sometimes*br*Beirdd: LOL*br*TopazOwl: Why do we lose the magic of the ritual?*br*Beirdd: Sheer laziness*br*Beirdd: we become calloused, spoiled.*br*Deborah: the singing can lift you up and losen the spirit to be more ready to power up*br*TopazOwl: Yeah. The "oh, I have to go to chuuurrrchhh?"*br*Deborah: I think part of it is fear actually Beirdd.*br*Searles: Ithink its a matter of receiving feedback form the ritual workings.*br*Deborah: that's what THEY DO and we certainly dont want ot be like THEM.*br*Beirdd: yes*br*Deborah: we've thrown the baby out withthe bathwater*br*Searles: If you don't get any spirit back from them, then you lose enthusiasm.*br*Deborah: the good news is that I think it's the pendulum effect and is mostly self correcting*br*TopazOwl: I used to sit with a thousand people and never feel spirit.*br*Beirdd: yes, Deb, I agree*br*Deborah: we'll see more and more pagan music coming to the fore (and not just pagan rock and roll type stuff) but Sacred Music*br*Deborah: and a return of Sacred Dance*br*Deborah: it's just that the first pull of the pendulum tends to move people as out of balance in the opposite direction as they were in the first place*br*TopazOwl: Indeed.*br*Deborah: it's all settle to the middle and balance out*br*Deborah: just will take time*br*Deborah: or effort*br*LdyHarp: yes it does*br*TopazOwl: I went through that. A long time ago.*br*TopazOwl: Now I tend to see the middle everywhere. <g>*br*Beirdd: Now Owl is a "Produce Keeper."*br*Deborah: we could speed it up if we're willing to step in and grab the blade to stop it on the downstroke and hold it level at the bottom of the arc.*br*TopazOwl: LOL*br*Beirdd: If you don't place much value on your fingers*br*TopazOwl: Can I say something here?*br*TopazOwl: I can't hold it in anymore. :-)*br*Deborah: yes. When I left the Christian church I went through a period of Anti-Christianism as a method of 'deprogramming'. But I've worked through it and feel now that I'm at a place of more balance where everybody elses religion is just as ok as mine. It's a very FREEING place to get to.*br*Deborah: Sure Topaz... go for it*br*Beirdd: indeed*br*TopazOwl: I can't understand why so many Pagans hate the Pope.*br** Deborah thinks she'd like to see the person who's fool enough to try and stop Topaz from speaking her mind <GGG>*br*TopazOwl: I mean, he's just as much a holy man as the Dali Lama.*br*Deborah: oooo oooooo *br** Deborah raises her hand in the back of the room*br*TopazOwl: But they don't hate the Dali Lama.*br*TopazOwl: Go ahead Deb.*br** LdyHarp raises her hand and waits her turn after Deb*br*Deborah: they dont perceive the religion of the Dali Lama as a threat to them and their religion. They do perceive (rightly or wrongly) the Christian Church as 'opposition'.*br*Deborah: even though it's more protestant than Catholic causing all the 'we hate dem stinkin weeches' nonsense*br*TopazOwl: But the Catholic Church isn't the only "Christian" church.*br*Deborah: he's getting tarred with the same brush as any other*br*TopazOwl: And the other Christians think the Catholics are Pagans! :-)*br*Deborah: true.*br*Beirdd: yes*br*Deborah: however, he is THE head of one of the largest bodies of THEMS*br*Beirdd: easy target*br*Beirdd: how can you hate the President of the Southern Baptists?*br*Deborah: if the protestants had ONE head, pagans would be taking just as much of a swing at it as they do at the Pope*br*Deborah: he's a visible target*br*Beirdd: Do you even know who he is?!*br*TopazOwl: Deb, that is so true. It *is* the Protestants.*br*Beirdd: And anti-Catholicsm is a great American tradition.*br*Deborah: Everybody knows who the pope is*br*Searles: He used to be the pastor of the Belleview Baptist churchinnMemphis Adrian Rogers.*br*TopazOwl: People get so tied up in their hatred they don't even see straight.*br*Searles: Nice guy actually.*br*Beirdd: There are even letters between Adams and Jefferson wishing they could leave the "Papists" out of it all...*br*Deborah: he is set apart from not only the 'great unwashed masses' but even among his own minister class*br*Deborah: there's only ONE of him, and only ONE Catholic church (for all intents and practical purposes). *br*TopazOwl: He's the Archdruid of the Catholic Church. :-)*br*Searles: That was because the Popes of those times played politics.*br*Deborah: the Protestsants are too fragmented*br*Deborah: there's the Southern Baptist*br*Deborah: the American Baptists*br*LdyHarp: I think they dont understand that being Catholic is a choice like any other faith, they get confused because so many cultures are Catholic and some how think we have a gun to our heads*br*Beirdd: Yes...*br*Deborah: the Primitative Baptists*br*Deborah: The New Reformed Baptists*br*Deborah: etc etc etc*br*Deborah: it's like trying to cut the heads off of the snakes on medusa*br*Deborah: easier to just take Medusa head instead*br*LdyHarp: just today I had to call a radio station and blast the dj for crabbing that the Pope said no birth control in the Phillipines*br*TopazOwl: Yes, but what an ally he could be.*br*LdyHarp: he was all like "like we need more people"*br*Searles: Well Baptists are well know for losing their heads.:-)*br*Deborah: I agree... "If he could just be turned to the darkside <bwhahahahahah>)*br*LdyHarp: I told him hey no one has to be Catholic, if you want to use birth control you do*br*Beirdd: Did the DJ volunteer to jump off a bridge to make room? ;-)*br*LdyHarp: no gun to the head*br** TopazOwl slaps Deborah with the Salmon of Wisdom*br*LdyHarp: I broke church law by using fertililty drugs*br*Deborah: from what I understand a lot of people are just ignoring that particular Papal Bull anyway and using them anyway*br*LdyHarp: I have no guilt bout it*br*LdyHarp: I dont agree with the Church on this one *br*LdyHarp: but no one forced me one way or the other*br*Beirdd: But it isn't a matter of agreement...*br*Deborah: which is one reason the American Catholic church is making the Roman Catholic church nuts (from what I understand as an outsider looking in)*br*LdyHarp: just cause im Catholic dont mean I have a gun to my had put there by the pope*br*Beirdd: one can be a bad Catholic (like most) which just means you're trying hard, but...*br*Deborah: hey... you reckon it's all those Celts we had migrate over here causing all that hardheaded grief for Rome? <WEG>*br*LdyHarp: yeah Beirdd I agree*br*Beirdd: Someday I have to reveal to you how what Americans know as the Catholic Church is really Irish and not Roman.*br*LdyHarp: the Church like all churches say here are the rule*br*LdyHarp: live with it our find another religion*br*LdyHarp: no force*br*TopazOwl: You certainly will reveal that to us.*br*Deborah: Beirdd, I'd love to hear that discussion*br*TopazOwl: Next time maybe.*br*LdyHarp: oh yes Beirdd*br*LdyHarp: I would love to hear that*br** Searles thinks about the irony of all his Italian neighbors going to an Irish Church.*br*Deborah: hahahahah ROFL*br*Deborah: I cant wait to read the 'cleaned up version' of the transcript <G>*br*Beirdd: I'll work on it...*br*Searles: I'm looking forward to continuing this discussion on another night*br*Searles: and I'm looking forward to involving more Summerlands Members in them.*br* Abbey Chat 10/20/99 Beirdd 113 Tue Nov 2 18:12:09 1999