Summerlands Spiritual Synchronicity Series 2 (11/17/99)
Beirdd

Sun Dec  5 23:03:05 1999
Beirdd:		 Welcome to the second installment of the Summerlands Spiritual Synchronicity Series. *br*Beirdd:		 Last month, our discussion centered around the symbolic ground shared by pre-Christian Celtic spiritual belief and Catholic belief as it is manifested in ritual, even to this day.*br*Beirdd:		 In this second exploration into the Celtic and the Catholic, I thought we'd take a small look at several other influences of the Celts on Catholicism, *br*Beirdd:		 including personal devotions, the idea of penance, and nature worship.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Tonight's presentation will, then, be a bit more piecemeal than the previous one (if that's at all possible). But before we begin, I'd like to point out that last *br*Beirdd:		 month's chat transcript is available on the Sanctuary message board. I have also posted some current Catholic teaching on nature that you might find interesting, if not surprising!*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Please feel free to ask questions or comment at any time.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 And last, but not least, I'd also like to stir up some applause for our intrepid leaders, Searles and Deborah, who so often prove themselves as guides of the spirit, mind, and heart -- *br*Beirdd:		  in this particular case by manifesting both the courage and conviction of their deep belief by inviting just this sort of *br*Beirdd:		 discussion at a time when so few, even in the Pagan community, dare to peek above the murk of human failure and fear to catch a glimpse of the light that is for us all.*br*Beirdd:		  *br** TopazOwl claps heartily*br*Beirdd:		 :-)*br** GreyWolf clapping*br*Jay:			 Hip hip hooray*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Now for "Celtic and Catholic, Part 2" --*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Searles:		 ?me bows in all humility.*br*Searles:		 and in the lousiness of my typing :-)*br*TopazOwl:	 <g>*br*Beirdd:		 Let's start with penance, something we had touched on last month...*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Let me begin by asking "Was sin something that you think was on the mind of the (pre-Christian) Celt?"*br*Searles:		 !*br*Beirdd:		 Searles?*br*Searles:		 I don't think Celts embraced sin so much as honor.*br*Searles:		 I believe they considered that every action had a price that could be paid to redeem it. ga*br*Jay:			 I would echo Searles comment...*br*Beirdd:		 yes*br*Beirdd:		 Most people would say that the Celt really had few worries about "sin" per se, and penance. *br*Beirdd:		 It is therefore all the more amazing that the Irish in particular took to these concepts in a particularly passionate way. Their enthusiasm for penance helped to shape the Catholic concept of penance, as well as the *br*Beirdd:		 practice of confession. It even provided the main character of what would eventually be called "Irish Catholicsm" and the "American Catholic" (more on that later). *br*Beirdd:		  *br*TopazOwl:	 !*br*Beirdd:		 Owl?*br*TopazOwl:	 I wonder if it was an extension of the idea of geasa.*br*Beirdd:		 Perhaps.*br*Searles:		 !*br*Beirdd:		 Searles?*br*Searles:		 I think it was more of a belief in truth being related to consequences.*br*Searles:		 If a person left the truth behind,*br*Searles:		 then they would suffer and their tribe might also suffer.*br*TopazOwl:	 Indeed.*br*Searles:		 At that point, a price had to be paid or at the least the truth re-embraced.*br*Searles:		 ga*br*Beirdd:		 Good point...I hadn;t looked at it from that point of view before...*br*Beirdd:		 By the way, this was happening well before the age of Irish troubles, which eventually become a tempting source for the Irish obsession with sin.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Some background...*br*TopazOwl:	 (Have the Irish ever *not* had troubles? <g>)*br*Beirdd:		 Of course, the concept of sin was inherited by Christianity from Judaism. First was the idea of the original disobedience of Adam and Eve, then*br*Beirdd:		 codified by Moses and emphasized by the Prophets. *br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 The New Testament referred to sin in terms of faults in an individual's character, violation of natural law, personal responsibility, and disbelief in Christ.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 The very early Church saw it in terms of a three-fold danger: idolatry (or a return to paganism), sexual infidelity, and bloodshed.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 In the second half of the 4th century, an Christian named Evagrius Ponticus had to flee Constantinople for Jerusalem to avoid the consequences of a love affair. *br*Beirdd:		 He joined the monks at Nitria, in the Egyptian Desert, eventually writing a book called "On the Eight Evil Thoughts" which would eventually be popularized as "The Seven Deadly Sins."*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 There...now you're ready for the next session of "So You Want to Be A Millioniare..."*br*TopazOwl:	 ?*br*Beirdd:		  in case Regis asks "Where did the 7 deadly sins come from?...Is that your FINAL answer?"*br*Beirdd:		 Owl?*br*TopazOwl:	 Why eight and then seven?*br*TopazOwl:	 What did they leave out?*br*Beirdd:		 Coming to it :-)*br*TopazOwl:	 Okay. :-)*br*Beirdd:		 Now for the 7 or 8: gluttony, fornication, avarice, dejection, anger, weariness of spirit, vainglory, and pride.*br*Beirdd:		  Dejection and weariness of spirit were eventually coalesced, and envy added to the list.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Anyway...why all this background? Because one of Evagrius' contemporaries was another Egyptian monk named John Cassian,*br*Beirdd:		 who wrote a book called the "Institutes" which was one of the earliest codes for monastic life. *br*Beirdd:		 This book was carries to Ireland and virtually became the Irish monk's "Bible."*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Now...the sacrament of penance did not become a general practice in Catholicism until 1215. However, because of the influence of monastic life, in had an older history in Ireland. *br*Beirdd:		 The people had a close relationship with their monks/druids, so the monastic practice was frequently shared among the laypeople.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Also, the sense of Irish "guilt" over their blessedly bloodless conversion may have played a role in the popularity of penance among the Irish.*br*Beirdd:		  It became a sort of psychological necessity.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*TopazOwl:	 ?*br*Beirdd:		 Owl?*br*TopazOwl:	 Can we talk about that a little? This is not the first time I have heard you refer to the Irish "guilt," and I think I need to understand it.*br*Beirdd:		 Sure...*br*TopazOwl:	 Why feel guilty over bloodless conversion?*br*Beirdd:		 Ireland was the only place in history where new Christians didn't become martyrs as well...thereby blessing their land with their own blood.*br*TopazOwl:	 So they didn't have martyrs, and this was a guilt?*br*Beirdd:		 Only a guilt as they perceived it...as if they hadn;t "paid for" their entry into the faith as others had.*br*TopazOwl:	 I can understand that in a way, as such a change in the world would require a sacrifice in the minds of the Celts.*br*GreyWolf:	 Could be seen that way, maybe it appeared that conversion was too easy*br*Beirdd:		 So they sought other martyrdoms...like monsatic life, severe penances, the green martyrdom of exile.*br*Beirdd:		 yes Gary*br*Beirdd:		 That too Owl*br*Beirdd:		 Is it clearer now?*br*TopazOwl:	 Yes. Thank you.*br*Beirdd:		 good :-)*br*Beirdd:		 Patrick supposedly wrote a list of "Do Nots" without penalties mentioned. Several of his successors were more willing to mention penances. *br*Beirdd:		 Then came what are known as the Irish "Penitentials," books of tables *br*Beirdd:		 categorizing sins and their appropriate penalties/penances.*br*Beirdd:		  *br** TopazOwl has that book*br*Beirdd:		 One of the earliest is attributed to Finnian of Clonnard, Columcille's mentor, written around 525. *br*Beirdd:		 It starts, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. 1. If anyone has sinned in the thoughts of his heart and immediately repents, *br*Beirdd:		  he shall beat his breast and seek pardon from God and make satisfaction, that he may be whole."*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 He quickly moved from the general to the particular. For example:*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 "6. If after anyone has started a quarrel and has plotted in his heart to stike or kill his neighbor, if the offender is a cleric, he shall do penance for half a year *br*Beirdd:		 with an allowance of bread and water, and for a whole year abstain from wine and meats, and thus he will be reconciled to the altar --->*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 "7. But if he is a layman, he shall do penance for a week, since he is a man of this world and his guilt is lighter in this world and his reward less in the world to come."*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Get the picture? ;-)*br*Beirdd:		  *br*TopazOwl:	 :-)*br*TopazOwl:	 Actually, that book is part of Brehon Law studies.*br*Beirdd:		 Really? Cool.*br*Beirdd:		 Finnian had 53 of these. *br*Beirdd:		 The Penitential of Cummean (circa 610) had 182 and circulated throughout Europe.*br*Beirdd:		 All sorts of sins were covered, including showing up late for choir (recite 12 psalms).*br*Beirdd:		 Sexual sins were a special focus (consider the monastic source of these books) *br** TopazOwl says when she shows up late for Hapkido, it's 25 pushups <g>*br*Beirdd:		 and included sex with a beast, with your mother, sodomy, masturbation, fellatio, and nocturnal emission*br*Beirdd:		 ("He who desires to sin during sleep, or is unintentionally polluted, fifteen psalms, he who sins and is not polluted, twenty-four.")*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 LOL*br*Beirdd:		 The preferred penance was recitation of a certain number of psalms. This could be modified by body position *br*Beirdd:		 (such as "crosfigil" or cross-vigil, that is, standing with arms held out) and other penalties for mistakes made during the recitation. This type of penance is actually fairly common among several faiths, including Hinduism.*br*TopazOwl:	 !*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Another preferred penance was limitation to bread and water for up to as long as a year.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Owl?*br*TopazOwl:	 I can see a relationship to that and the requirements of the Filidh.*br*Beirdd:		 yes?*br*TopazOwl:	 Well, having to recite psalms, that would be practice, and the filidh having to know a certain number of tales...*br*Beirdd:		 yes indeed...*br*TopazOwl:	 I can see how that transferred.*br*Jay has left the channel*br*Beirdd:		 and recall that the monks were required to memorize all 150 psalms since writing up psalteries would be a ridiculous task.*br*GreyWolf:	 psalteries ?*br*Beirdd:		 A psaltery is a book of the psalms.*br*GreyWolf:	 ah, thanks*br*Beirdd:		 They were the main prayers of monastic life.*br*Beirdd:		 Back to penances ;-)*br*Searles:		 I thought they were Saltairs*br*Searles:		 might be something different*br*TopazOwl:	 Psalters.*br*Beirdd:		 Psalters.*br*Beirdd:		 yep*br*TopazOwl:	 :-)*br*Beirdd:		 There was also flogging (Columcille's favorite), payment in slaves (!), plucking out hairs, sleeping in weird positions or places, and excommunication (the most severe). *br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Personally imposed penances were almpst always extreme: Findchú of Brígoban suspended himself for 7 years from iron sickles under his armpits.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*TopazOwl:	 Eeek!*br*Searles:		 Saltair is the Irish word for psalter*br*Beirdd:		 Ah...there you go!*br*TopazOwl:	 These strike me as shamanic in nature.*br*Beirdd:		 there does seem to be that sort of flavor to some of them :-)*br*TopazOwl:	 The idea being to transcend the physical. To endure.*br*Beirdd:		 yes*br*TopazOwl:	 Were the monks mystics?*br*Beirdd:		 To whip the body back into submission to the soul.*br*Beirdd:		 Living their life, I doubt they could avoid becoming mystics.*br*GreyWolf:	 sounds masochistic to me*br*Searles:		 These penances alsmost eseem yogic.*br*Beirdd:		 Masochistic - mystic .... just a few vowels difference ;-)*br*Beirdd:		 yes*br*TopazOwl:	 Ah see, to me it is no different than a sweat lodge r a sun dance.*br*Beirdd:		 How about this imposed one...*br*Beirdd:		 Enda was exiled to Brittania for some offense and told,*br*Beirdd:		 "Don;t come back until the fame of your good deeds proceeds you."*br*Beirdd:		 He is now known as Saint Enda. :-)*br*TopazOwl:	 :-)*br*Beirdd:		 Anyway...*br*Beirdd:		 In the end, the Irish gave Catholicism (or at least encouraged it towards) the practice of individual confession -- *br*Beirdd:		  from the relationship of the anamchara and his monk directee.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 The use of penitentials, however, faded after the first millennium.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Let's throw in a tidbit:*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 The personal spiritual practice of annointing one's self with oil has been a tradition in Irish Catholicism since its earliest times. Any ideas why?*br*Beirdd:		  *br*TopazOwl:	 Got me. :-)*br*Beirdd:		 OK...you're a Celtic warrior getting ready for battle...off with the clothes, on with the...*br*Beirdd:		 ?*br*GreyWolf:	 woad*br*Beirdd:		 and oil*br*Beirdd:		 aargh*br*TopazOwl:	 Oil and woad?*br*Beirdd:		 I was thinking just oil...I'd forgotten about the woad.*br*GreyWolf:	 That was common for a lot of warriors to get oiled up before battle*br*Beirdd:		 I thought I had read accounts of them oiling their skin before battle.*br*Beirdd:		 Harder to grab.*br*GreyWolf:	 Yes and you shine as well - a good effect if coming with the sun behind you*br*Beirdd:		 indeed*br*Beirdd:		 so the Irish annoint themselves as a prelude to the spiritual battles of the day.*br** TopazOwl nods*br*Beirdd:		 Let's jump to the character of Irish (and, through the Irish, American) Catholicism. It has a lot to do with the Irish view of sin.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 People familiar with Catholicism from an American viewpoint, are often taken aback by the informality of liturgies in other places in the world, including Rome!  *br*Beirdd:		   American Catholics are used to much more somber celebrations, and the reason is found in the Irish style of American Catholicism.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 By the 19th and 20th centuries, this somberness was still caused by that original sense of "Irish" guilt that had become ingrained with the centuries. *br*Beirdd:		 It was compounded by the sadness of those centuries in terms of oppression, and by the immigrant's feeling that he has betrayed his *br*Beirdd:		 homeland by leaving it.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 This somberness is at the root of that strange image Searles brought up last month about watching Italians trying to attend Mass at an Irish parish.*br*Beirdd:		 First they stayed in the basement. Then they got their own churches. Because of language? No. Because of style.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 So when people talk about all that Catholic guilt trip stuff, what they really mean is that Irish Catholic guilt trip stuff ;-)*br*Beirdd:		 Are people still here?*br*TopazOwl:	 Oh yes. Listening.*br*GreyWolf:	 doing penance*br*Beirdd:		 LOL*br*TopazOwl:	 LOL*br*Beirdd:		 That bad, huh?*br*TopazOwl:	 You need to!*br** GreyWolf will never learn*br*TopazOwl:	 Yes. I find that the Italians have no such guilt trip. :-)*br*TopazOwl:	 LOL*br*Beirdd:		 Anyway...there's not much more to go.*br*Beirdd:		 The devotion of Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament had become popular worldwide in recent years. Prior to this, its main popularity was in Ireland and America. The reason? *br*Beirdd:		 The Irish, so attunded to their own sinfulness, often consider themselves unfit to receive communion, which is to be done only in a state of grace (having been cleansed of major sin).*br*Beirdd:		 Therefore, to retain some sort of more frequent "physical" contact (albeit by sight) *br*Beirdd:		  the Irish like to attend Adoration "Holy Hours" during which the host is displayed to be adored during prayers.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 So, in these ways, American Catholicsm has been shaped by the Irish.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Let's finish with a brief look at Celtic "Nature Worship" and Catholicism.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 After the Lord's Prayer and the Creed, a favorite Celtic prayer (Scot and Irish) of long standing has been:*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 "The eye of the Great God,*br*Beirdd:		 The eye of the God of glory,*br*Beirdd:		 The eye of the King of hosts,*br*Beirdd:		 The eye of the King of the living,*br*Beirdd:		 Pouring upon us*br*Beirdd:		 At each time and season,*br*Beirdd:		 Pouring upon us*br*Beirdd:		 Gently and generously.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Glory to thee,*br*Beirdd:		 Thou glorious sun,*br*Beirdd:		 Glory to thee, thou sun,*br*Beirdd:		 Face of the God of life."*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Before you assume that this seeming pantheism would be considered anathema to the Catholic Church,*br*Beirdd:		 consider the words of St. Francis of Assisi, which have become an integral part of Church teaching on the immanence of God in creation:*br*Beirdd:		 "Highest, greatest, best Lord - your’s are the praises, the glory and honor and every blessing - to you,*br*Beirdd:		 O Highest, do they give themselves. - and no one has dignity enough to call upon you.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 You are praised, O my Lord, with all your creatures, - especially master and brother the sun - who is the day and enlightens us for you. - and he is beautiful and bright, with great splendor. -*br*Beirdd:		 O Highest, he bears your very image.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 You are praised, O my Lord, with brother wind, - and with air and clouds, - and calm and every weather, - through whom you give your creation life.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 You are praised, O my Lord, with sister water, - who is most useful and humble and precious and faithful.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 You are praised, O my Lord, with brother fire - through whom you light the night - and he is handsome and playful, ruddy and strong.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 You are praised, O my Lord, with our sister, mother earth - who feeds and rules - and gives all kinds of fruit and herbs with colored flowers.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 You are praised, O my Lord, with those who forgive in your love - and endure all illness and trials.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Blessed are they who endure in peace - since,*br*Beirdd:		 O Highest, they share your crown.*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 You are praised, O my Lord, with our sister bodily death - from whom no one living may run. -*br*Beirdd:		  Woe to those who are in mortal sin, - blessed are they who will find in your sacred will that the second death will not harm them!*br*Beirdd:		  *br*Beirdd:		 Praised and blessed are you, O my Lord, - and thanked and served with great humility!"*br*Beirdd:		  *br*TopazOwl:	 Hmm...those Catholics are just a bunch of Pagan nature-worshippers! ;-)*br*Beirdd:		 But then, Francis was named "Francesco" ("Little Frenchman") by a father who loved the land of the Franks and Gauls, *br*Beirdd:		 whose son imagined himself to be a knight of the Round Table and who came to be called by some*br*Beirdd:		  "the second Christ" and by others "the Italian Druid."*br*Searles:		 I can see how the Irish would have had few problems embracing a religion like that.*br*Searles:		 It was the religion they already embraced.*br*Beirdd:		 So that's it for the penance, er...presentation tonight...*br*TopazOwl:	 Indeed.*br** TopazOwl slaps Beirdd with the Salmon of Wisdom*br*TopazOwl:	 I dind't know he was called the Italian Druid.*br*Searles:		 Sufferin Suckatash*br*TopazOwl:	 Who called him that?*br*Searles:		 What was the time frame?*br*Beirdd:		 I've known some Italians to refer to him like that...also some more recent articles and commentaries on his life.*br*Beirdd:		 Of Francis' life?*br*Searles:		 I've always considered that those who chose the "green matyrdom" were very close to Druids.*br*Searles:		 yes*br*TopazOwl:	 Yes, when did he live?*br*Beirdd:		 Francis lived 1181-1226.*br*TopazOwl:	 Cool.*br*Beirdd:		 Remeber also that there are very close ties between the Irish and Italians, who shared exiles and saints.*br*Searles:		 Doesn't make any associations for me, but then spirit pays little attention to time.*br*TopazOwl:	 Yes. They also seem to have shared a common language at one time. :-)*br*Beirdd:		 Good chunks of it*br*TopazOwl:	 Celto-Italian branch of the Indo-European tree.*br*Searles:		 Many parts of the cultures have similar traditions, which is one reason  why my arguments*br*Searles:		 with Raven Grimassi were so frustrating.*br*TopazOwl:	 Why?*br*Beirdd:		 He refused to see the corrolaries*br*Beirdd:		 ?*br*Beirdd:		 sorry...correlations*br*Searles:		 He'd always claim that Celtic things were taken from the Italian traditions*br*Beirdd:		 oops...he*br*Searles:		 when they actually share a common cultural background.*br*TopazOwl:	 Hmm. I would say it was more a common ancestry.*br*TopazOwl:	 Yes, exactly.*br** Searles thinks that it was waaaay back there.*br*TopazOwl:	 Yes.*br*TopazOwl:	 But still...and they also had shared cultures between them int he time of Ceasar.*br*Searles:		 I'm thanking you for giving us some ideas to consider and to reflect upon.*br*Beirdd:		 and blood in the north of Italy, which is wherre Assisi is*br*Beirdd:		 thank YOU*br*TopazOwl:	 Beirdd, thank you. I always learn so much from these things.*br*GreyWolf:	 Beirdd, you done so soon with this 4s*br*TopazOwl:	 I really enjoy them.*br*Beirdd:		 good*br*Beirdd:		 we'll see where they go next*br*Beirdd:		 and we'll keep this particular thread going in the Sanctuary*br*Searles:		 I think that I'll be having some comments to add to the transcript*br*Searles:		 on the message board.*br*TopazOwl:	 Oh of course!*br*Beirdd:		 :-)*br*