shane@cais.com Druids: Their Holy Days: Samhain, pt. 1 Taiesin_2 shane@cais.com Tue May 12 23:30:16 1998 *br**** Log file opened: 5/12/98 7:39:53 PM*br*Taliesin_2 [shane@shane.cais.com] has joined #The_Druids'_Grove*br*Druids: Their Holy Days: Samhain (Taliesin_2)*br*ChanServ sets mode: +r *br*ChanServ sets mode: +o Taliesin_2 *br*IceWa1ker [danu@ppp-204.nunanet.com] has joined #The_Druids'_Grove*br*<IceWa1ker> Hi Tal_2*br*<Taliesin_2> Hello*br*<Taliesin_2> How are you this evening?*br*Steelclaw [steelclaw@dialup-200.apex2000.net] has joined #The_Druids'_Grove*br*<Steelclaw> Hello*br*<Taliesin_2> Greetings Steelclaw*br*<Steelclaw> Anybody home? :)*br*<Steelclaw> Greetings to you too.*br*<Steelclaw> I suppose I'm early*br*<Taliesin_2> Yeah, but don't worry about it.*br*<IceWa1ker> hello ... sorry away from keyboard waiting*br*<Taliesin_2> np*br*<Taliesin_2> Have you two met yet?*br*<Steelclaw> no problem. hello Icewalker*br*<Steelclaw> I don't beleive so*br*<IceWa1ker> Nope... well met Steelclaw*br*<Steelclaw> my mistake :)*br*<Taliesin_2> Steelclaw, IceWa1ker.*br*<Taliesin_2> IceWa1ker, Steelclaw*br*<IceWa1ker> Jeeze Tal, I was so eager to get here tonight I came on at 7:00 instead of 8:00 and figured I was invisable*br*<Taliesin_2> :)*br*<IceWa1ker> <grin>*br*<Taliesin_2> np*br*<Taliesin_2> It happens*br*Steelclaw grins*br*<Steelclaw> I've done it before.*br*<IceWa1ker> where do you hail from Steelclaw?*br*<Steelclaw> Texas...*br*<Steelclaw> How about u?*br*<IceWa1ker> WOW !! long ways away, I'm about as far away from you as I can be and still be on the same contenent*br*<Steelclaw> where's that?*br*<IceWa1ker> I live in the Canadian Arctic - Baffin Island ... the miracle of the 'net 'eh?*br*<Taliesin_2> Oh? Where abouts?*br*<Taliesin_2> I'd say so.*br*<Taliesin_2> Hows the weather?*br*<Steelclaw> No kiddin*br*<Steelclaw> It's about 100 degrees here...how about you? <G>*br*<IceWa1ker> Hum.... do you know where greenland is Steel?*br*<Taliesin_2> Wet here in the Washington, DC area*br*<IceWa1ker> snow & wind this morning but it's cleared up and fairly warm just now*br*<Steelclaw> Yes...I beleive I know where you're refering to *br*<Taliesin_2> Wayyyyyyy up there, huh? :)*br*<IceWa1ker> Greenland is our closest physical neighbour*br*<Steelclaw> YOu mean you get electricity up there? (joke)*br*<IceWa1ker> hehe look WAY up ... (and I'll call Rusty) :-)*br*Steelclaw laughs*br*<IceWa1ker> that and many other things ,, like TAXES !!! :_(*br*<Steelclaw> Well...that always sux :)*br*<IceWa1ker> hehehe*br*<Taliesin_2> Death & Taxes*br*<Taliesin_2> Not a good combo*br*<Steelclaw> Never*br*<Steelclaw> For a minute I was thinking death = texas *lol**br*<IceWa1ker> but you do however get to avoid the taxes after death <grin>*br*<Taliesin_2> Steel!!!!*br*<Taliesin_2> For shame!*br*<Steelclaw> I can make fun of my own state <G> it's legal...in some towns*br*<IceWa1ker> everything's big there man... everything !!! (BIG grin) hehe*br*<Taliesin_2> yeah. but not ypur relatives.. :)*br*<Steelclaw> I think that's the best rumor about the place...and it's sometimes right*br*<IceWa1ker> brb ... nother window is giving me grief*br*<Taliesin_2> Humor often is right as well as true.*br*<Taliesin_2> brb*br*<Steelclaw> Very true :)*br*<Steelclaw> K..I'll be here*br*<Steelclaw> So what is to be the topic this evening*br*Taliesin_2 changes topic to "Druids: Their Holy Days: Samhain"*br*<Steelclaw> ahh I see*br*<Taliesin_2> Druids: Their Holy Days: Samhain/Samhuin*br*<Steelclaw> Great...I finally join in and it's a topic I know very little about :)*br*VitMonx [~yup@mil-16.dialup.northernnet.com] has joined #The_Druids'_Grove*br*<Steelclaw> Should be educational*br*<VitMonx> MM all*br*<Steelclaw> Hello*br*<Taliesin_2> Hello VitMonx*br*<Taliesin_2> Welcome to The Grove*br*<VitMonx> Thank you - Myrriah said you were here again :-)*br*<Taliesin_2> You all may grab a tree stump to rest your weary bones upon. :0*br*Steelclaw grabs a stump*br*<Steelclaw> =)*br*<Taliesin_2> Yes. I hold this chat weekly on Tuesdays at 8 PM every week.*br*Myrriah [~myrriah@as5200-1-41.cnb.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #The_Druids'_Grove*br*<Myrriah> Hello*br*<Steelclaw> 'ello*br*<Taliesin_2> Hi Myrriah.*br*<Myrriah> Are you still discussing Samhain then Tal? Hi*br*<Taliesin_2> Grab a tree stump to rest your weary bones upon. :)*br*<Taliesin_2> Just getting started...*br*<Myrriah> OK*br*<Taliesin_2> OK, lets begin then...*br*<Steelclaw> ok*br*MysticWlf [~Mystical@158.5.14.28] has joined #The_Druids'_Grove*br*MysticWlf bows*br*<Taliesin_2> For those of you who missed the first hour of the chat last week*br*<Taliesin_2> greetings*br*Steelclaw nods slightly*br*<Steelclaw> hello*br*<MysticWlf> greetings taliesin and steelclaw*br*<Taliesin_2> I had basically cleared up the myth about the non-existant God samhain.*br*<Steelclaw> I've heard of that debate.*br*<IceWa1ker> Hi all ... (back from pesky grief giving window)*br*MysticWlf sits 'neath a tree and listens*br*<Taliesin_2> There is NO God in the Celtic cosmology called Samhain*br*<MysticWlf> g'day icewa1ker*br*<Steelclaw> I didn't think so. But some do*br*<IceWa1ker> Regardless of what the school text books say ... I had this battle with a grade 6 teacher just last fall !*br*<Steelclaw> Really?*br*<Myrriah> Where do they get this idea from, though, does anyone know? I had never heard of it until last week?*br*<Taliesin_2> It is a misconception that there is or was a Deity of the Dead. *br*<Steelclaw> None of my history or text books ever refered to druids or their gods except for my english book...in 1 paragraph*br*<Steelclaw> I suppose they assume it's something like worshiping "death"*br*<Taliesin_2> I read about Samhain(the N/E Deity) in a issue of sage woman*br*<Steelclaw> Sage woman?*br*<Taliesin_2> A pagan publication*br*<Taliesin_2> One of the few worth noting*br*<Steelclaw> Ah.*br*<Myrriah> Well I am sorry but that is way beyond me, as I worship the Old Gods, this must be a new idea?*br*<IceWa1ker> If fact the test book that *was* used in the school here said that Druids made sacrifices to the Dread God Samhain on halloween ----- rubish ! *br*<Taliesin_2> Green Egg is now more New Age-ish*br*<Taliesin_2> Agreed Ice*br*<Steelclaw> Some books are SO outdated.*br*<Steelclaw> Or uneducational*br*<Taliesin_2> But we must respect their opinion, even if we know otherwise.*br*<Myrriah> True.*br*MysticWlf nods w/ talie and myrriah..and smiles*br*<Steelclaw> I suppose*br*<IceWa1ker> hummm.....*br*<IceWa1ker> would it not be incumbent upon us to better educate them?*br*<VitMonx> Green Egg?*br*<Taliesin_2> Opinions, no matter how rediculous ALWAYS hold asmidgen of truth.*br*<Steelclaw> Ice...I would think so. As long as it's not in an agressive manner*br*<Taliesin_2> Yes a pagan/New Age publication*br*<VitMonx> k*br*<Taliesin_2> Perhaps, but they may not want to listen to what we say.*br*<Taliesin_2> Because in their eyes we are attacking their faith.*br*MysticWlf again nods w/ taliesin, as he was thinking the same thing*br*<Taliesin_2> And thus they might be "closed" to what we have to say*br*Steelclaw shrugs*br*<MysticWlf> if you are not willing to change, what makes you think they will? *br*<IceWa1ker> ever so correct Tal ... but I feel the necessity of at least explaining the situation as it really is*br*<Taliesin_2> absolutely, MysticWlf*br*<Taliesin_2> You may try, but remember, it may turn out to be a futile attempt.*br*<Steelclaw> Could we get into some of the more specific representations of Samhain...I know very little of the holidays so far. And I'm quite lost at some points.*br*IceWa1ker nods*br*<Taliesin_2> OK.*br*Steelclaw blushes*br*<Taliesin_2> Deities:*br*<Myrriah> True agin Tal I have found the best way to go about expalining a new concept to somebody is gently and with alot of patience and then they may still not get it.*br*<Taliesin_2> The Morrigan/Morrighan*br*<Taliesin_2> Remember the Morrigan is a single Female Deity while The Morrigu is a Tripple Goddess*br*<Steelclaw> uh...*br*<Taliesin_2> Yes, Steel?*br*<Taliesin_2> You have a question?*br*<Steelclaw> nothing...that's just me "I have no clue" statement. =\*br*<Taliesin_2> Oh. Ok.*br*<Taliesin_2> The Morrigan is said to have Married Dadga/Dadgha, The Good God on Samhain*br*<Taliesin_2> She is respresented as a maiden, a crone & a raven to the Ulster hero Cuchulainn*br*<Taliesin_2> In all 3 incarnations Cuchulainn did not recognize her for who she was.*br*<Taliesin_2> At the same time, he rejected her amorous advances*br*<Steelclaw> Some of that rings a bell :) Sure hope you people know more than I do...otherwise this is gonna be a very short chat. =)*br*<Taliesin_2> She is basically known as a Death & War Goddess*br*<Myrriah> Can i pop in and say that what I know of Morrigan is she is the Irish War Goddess? Daughter of Ernmas and sometimes a collective name for all three of her daughters Badhbh. Is this right?*br*<Taliesin_2> The first part yes.*br*<Taliesin_2> Thesecond no*br*<Taliesin_2> Thesecond falls to The Morrigan*br*<Myrriah> Ok, oops mistaught there then.*br*<Taliesin_2> Morrigu, sorry*br*<Myrriah> ok*br*<Taliesin_2> The Morrigu was a tribunal/Tripple Goddess made up of the following:*br*<Taliesin_2> Nemain(sp?), Macha, & Badb*br*<Taliesin_2> They say they would take forms of carrion birds & empower the side they wanted to win.*br*<Taliesin_2> Then feast upon the dead.*br*<Steelclaw> Nemainn...that's it*br*<Taliesin_2> Does anybody have any questions?*br*<Taliesin_2> Yes, Steel?*br*<Steelclaw> I had previously found a Celtic encyclopedia on the net and I read up on her before*br*<Taliesin_2> You have something?*br*<Myrriah> No questions here.*br*<Taliesin_2> Oh. OK*br*MysticWlf shakes his head, "no questions here"*br*<Taliesin_2> Ice, anything?*br*<Taliesin_2> OK*br*VitMonx just listening*br*IceWa1ker nope ... *br*<Taliesin_2> If anybody has anything to add just speak up...*br*<Taliesin_2> The Date:*br*<Steelclaw> ok*br*<Taliesin_2> in most pagan Trads it is only on 11.31*br*<IceWa1ker> end of October - first of November*br*<Myrriah> Yes, this is when it falls for me it is the Witches new year.*br*<IceWa1ker> November 31?*br*<Steelclaw> Is it 1 day or a series of days? I've heard of both...*br*<Myrriah> I think Tal meant 10-31*br*<Taliesin_2> But is some if not all Druid Trads it goes from Oct 31 -Dec. 1 or second*br*<Steelclaw> I'm confused.*br*<Taliesin_2> Yes I didAnd I ment from Oct. 31 to Nove 1 or 2*br*IceWa1ker generally uses the first full moon in November*br*<Taliesin_2> In OBOD it last can last 3 days*br*<Myrriah> Why so long a time Tal, sorry guys But I am just trying to learn.*br*<Taliesin_2> ADF, I'm not sure about*br*<Taliesin_2> Sory Steel*br*<Steelclaw> Myrriah. Me too*br*<Taliesin_2> I think it has to do with the number 3*br*<Steelclaw> Is there any coincidence with anything astrological. I read the debate over Beltain...wondering if it's the same with Samhain*br*<Taliesin_2> Druids held the number sacred*br*MysticWlf nods...tri...*br*<Taliesin_2> In Ireland the have ancient texts called the Irish triads*br*<MysticWlf> and the Druidic Triads...too*br*<Taliesin_2> the numbr 3 was sacred like the number seven is*br*<MysticWlf> they are all in 3s as Tali said earlier..*br*<Taliesin_2> Thanks MysticWlf*br*<Myrriah> Ok, thanks! *br*<Taliesin_2> Like the old saying 3rd time is the charm...*br*<MysticWlf> The Spiral for instance...it is a form of beginning then ending at the same point but going in a different direction "so to speak"*br*<MysticWlf> if i'm wrong, please let me know...*br*<Taliesin_2> correct*br*<Steelclaw> So it always falls on the 31st through the 2nd?*br*<Taliesin_2> more or less*br*<Myrriah> I like the way you explained the Spiral Mystic, very good :-) That I CAN understand!*br*<Taliesin_2> it depends in which Druid Order your in I gues.*br*<IceWa1ker> dependent upon what you believe SC*br*MysticWlf nods to Myrriah..*br*<Steelclaw> I like to know all sides before I decide my own stance...that's why I'm asking.*br*<Taliesin_2> How long are ADF festivals? Anybody know?*br*<Taliesin_2> It is good that you ask*br*MysticWlf shakes his head*br*<IceWa1ker> unknown Tal_2*br*<Taliesin_2> Its the only way you are going to learn...*br*<Taliesin_2> ok*br*<IceWa1ker> a thought though, did the ancient ones not use a 12 month lunar cal. as opposed to the 12 month solar we now use?*br*<IceWa1ker> 13 month lunar cal possibly ?? <grin>*br*<Steelclaw> I am not quite sure.*br*<Taliesin_2> I'm not sure. I thought it was a13 month calendar*br*<VitMonx> I have read 13*br*MysticWlf nods, "i believe it was 13"*br*<IceWa1ker> sorry ... Tal_ mistyped*br*<Steelclaw> So would that change the days?*br*<VitMonx> 13 - 28 day*br*<Taliesin_2> I think it was the ending of December that was a period of "no time".*br*<VitMonx> problem arose that only five 364 days*br*<Taliesin_2> But again I'm not entirely sure...*br*<IceWa1ker> I think it would ... for instance in 500 BCE the Celts prob. did not have the month of November (not sure of when the cal we now use was implemented worldwide*br*<Taliesin_2> Yeah, but remember things took time*br*MysticWlf shrugs, i am not going to say anything as i am not sure and assumption is a "no go"*br*Steelclaw shrugs*br*<Taliesin_2> implemented things took centuries to fully circulate*br*<IceWa1ker> It is not (IMO) a big thing ... only interjected as a comment that there are different days (dependent upon belief structures) when the festival is celebrated*br*<Taliesin_2> But the calendar was implemented betwixt 500 BCE & 800 BCE*br*<Taliesin_2> OK.*br*<Steelclaw> I suppose. Shall we go on then?*br*<Taliesin_2> Now I'm going to ask a question: *br*<MysticWlf> are you satisfied, steel? if not, you should say so*br*<VitMonx> We use the Julian cal - devised by Julius Caesar and sent out to roman empire*br*<Taliesin_2> How many celebrate the Solstices & Equinox's on the ASTROLOGICAL date?*br*<Myrriah> I do.*br*<VitMonx> I try to or as close as possible*br*<Steelclaw> Sorry..I was distracted by people. I'm good*br*<Steelclaw> I celebrate on the calender date...since I don't know what the astrological date is*br*<Taliesin_2> Because there is a discussion on if its proper to celebrate on the calendar date or the astroogical date.*br*<IceWa1ker> Generally use cal date here*br*<IceWa1ker> very good point Tal*br*MysticWlf wonders, so what do we do? Celebrate on both calander and astrological? :) *sarcastic**br*<VitMonx> ?*br*<Taliesin_2> I get the feeling most celebrate on the cal date as opposed to the astrological date*br*<VitMonx> What do you mean cal date or Astrological*br*<Steelclaw> I'm lost. Maybe there's a happy medium =)*br*<Taliesin_2> and that may be due to the fact they may not be aware of the astro date.*br*<Steelclaw> Logically I'd say astrological, since they never went by the roman calender in the first place. *br*<Steelclaw> But I'd need someone to calculate it all for me first =)*br*<IceWa1ker> I guess it's when it feels correct to the individual/group*br*<Steelclaw> Ice...I agree*br*<VitMonx> Isn't the calendar date based on the astrological?*br*<Taliesin_2> Not sure VitMonx*br*MysticWlf agrees with vitmonx..i too thought the calander was based on astrological...but perhaps it isn't.*br*<Myrriah> Astrological means when evrything falls into place, as in the longest day or longest night, for the equinox just don't look at what days are there read the signs and build form there.*br*<Taliesin_2> But Llewellyn <gag!> puts out astrological book*br*<Taliesin_2> Spiral bound*br*<VitMonx> they change every year*br*<Myrriah> Not always Vitmonx.*br*<Steelclaw> Vit...supposedly this Beltain wasn't...so I dunno. I guess you just gotta buy a more acurate calender :)*br*<VitMonx> hmmm'*br*<MysticWlf> if there is a difference, it probably isn't too much, and i wonder if it would have an effect...*br*<Steelclaw> I think this debate could probalby go on forever :)*br*<VitMonx> we are talking bout solstices and equinox - right?*br*<Steelclaw> I say follow your heart...*br*<Taliesin_2> Yes.*br*<Taliesin_2> Basically my feeling is just do what feels right.*br*<Taliesin_2> Go with your gut feeling..*br*ScottW [webber@na1p45.ark.com] has joined #The_Druids'_Grove*br*<Taliesin_2> Hello Scott*br*<MysticWlf> g'day scottw*br*<ScottW> Hello*br*<IceWa1ker> agree'd Tal*br*<Steelclaw> Hi Scott*br*ScottW wonders if he knows anyone here besides Shane...*br*<MysticWlf> not me*br*<Steelclaw> I don't beleive so*br*<Taliesin_2> For those interested I log the chats & save them in Word 97*br*<Taliesin_2> If you want a copy let me know, ok?*br*<ScottW> So how has the discussion gone so far?*br*<Taliesin_2> Good.*br*<Taliesin_2> very active.*br*<Steelclaw> Not bad*br*ScottW grins... great!*br*<MysticWlf> scott: pull up a log and find out :)*br*<Steelclaw> a lot of debate :_)*br*<Myrriah> I go with the astrological only because I feel that I can raise more energy and create better magick that way. but of course thie is only MHO*br*ScottW finds a suitably sized piece of driftwood, and plops his ass down.*br*<Steelclaw> Myrriah...how do you find the astrological dates?*br*Proins`eaf [raven@1Cust20.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net] has joined #The_Druids'_Grove*br*<Proins`eaf> hi ho all*br*<MysticWlf> g'day proins`eaf*br*<Taliesin_2> Greeting Proins`eaf*br*<ScottW> I tend to choose the date that just *feels* like *Samhain* to me. I look at the area around where I live, and when the change occurs, I know.*br*Proins`eaf *Bandia Dhuit MysticWlf**br*Proins`eaf *Bandia Dhuit Taliesin_2**br*<Steelclaw> Hi Proins*br*<Proins`eaf> hi Steel*br*<Taliesin_2> We are at present siscusing where to celebrate on the calendar date or the astrological date*br*<Myrriah> I read them Steel, it was something I was taught way back when I was 13 I can't explain it, I know when they are, gods it is hard to explain, just I was taught to read them, along with other things.*br*<Taliesin_2> whether, sorry*br*<VitMonx> Wasn't Ostra on spring equinox (arounf March 21) and Beltaine on May 1st?*br*<Steelclaw> Myrriah. No problem. *br*<Taliesin_2> Yes. I believe so...*br*<VitMonx> Ostara (sp)*br*<Taliesin_2> Ostara is correct*br*<Proins`eaf> Beltain was when the hawthorn blooms*br*<ScottW> The fire festivals were primarily agricultural festivals -- a calendar date seems totally inappropriate. Even an astrological date, might not always be the most accurate in terms of when the land chooses to cycle the seasons.*br*<MysticWlf> Ostara is wiccan i though...could be wrong..*br*<Myrriah> Beltane fell on April 31 this year, the enrgies were right for it. Ostara I can't remember that far back <g>*br*<ScottW> Very few things are originally Wiccan. :-)*br*<Proins`eaf> Ludnasssa was when the first grain was cut*br*<Taliesin_2> I don't think so.*br*<Steelclaw> Wish I knew*br*<Taliesin_2> In Ross Nichols' The Book of Druidry he talks about celebrating all 8 holidays*br*IceWa1ker-AFK [danu@ppp-194.nunanet.com] has joined #The_Druids'_Grove*p*