Re: 4 to 8 to 4??? Jenny jennyg@compuserve.com Wed Mar 10 18:44:33 1999 Taliesin_2 wrote,*br*: If the Ancient Druids only *br*: celebrated only four holidays ( two of which are Beltaine & *br*: Samhain or Samhuinn) why do all the Druid Orders (ADF, *br*: Keltria & OBOD) insist/require that we celebrate 8 *br*: holidays???*p*Well... first, we're not really sure what holidays the ancient Druids celebrated. The four "Celtic" ones (Samhain, Imbolg, Lugnasadh, and Beltane) were arguably only celebrated in the Gaelic regions, and in other areas that had sizeable Gaelic settlements.*p*:I realize it might be because of a Wiccan influence(?)*p*Perhaps, in some of the most modern Druidic groups. However modern Druids have been using the four solar holidays since long before Wicca appeared on the scene. For instance, in 1792 the Welsh Eisteddfod celebrated "ancient" ceremonies on the fall equinox.*p*If I had to guess, I'd say that this arose because early antiquarians (back in the 17th-19th centuries) thought that the Druidry was a solar religion (like "all" "primitive" religions). Therefore they naturally assumed that Druids would celebrate the solstice and equinoxes.*p*In fact, what I'd be curious about is whether or not the 18th century Druids celebrated the Celtic quarter days. The early Bardic revivals were Welsh and British, areas where people used the English Quarter Days (roughly, the solstices and equinoxes) not the Celtic Quarter Days (Samhain and company) to divide the year. Are there any experts in 18th century Druidry lurking about who know what holidays they celebrated?*p*:I'd like a list of the eight holidays with all the alternative *br*:spellings/names as well as the dates they are celebrated on*p*<g> No can do on the alternate spellings -- there are far, far too many of them! As for the rest...:*p*Yule (or Christmas). Celebrated on December 25th (the date that was considered the winter solstice under both the medieval and the Roman calendar). Celebrated throughout most of Europe, though there's no evidence that it reached Ireland until introduced by Christianity.*p*Imbolg (or Oimelc, which sounds very similar; St. Brigit's Day under Christianity). Celebrations began on the night of January 31st and ran through the day of February 1st. Imbolg was *never* celebrated on February 2nd (Candlemas Day, the Purification of the Virgin Mary), as you'll hear many Neo-Pagans claim. Imbolg and Candlemas are two distinct, different holidays. The Gaels did not confuse or conflate them -- they celebrated both.*p*Ostara (Lady Day). Ostara is a "reconstruction" of an "ancient" holiday. Traditionally, March 25th was Lady Day, the day of the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary (aka, nine months before Christmas, and thus the day the BVM must have gotten pregnant on). March 25th was the medieval/Roman date for the spring equinox. "Ostara" is the Old High German name for Easter. Because all of the Germanic names for Easter involve the word for "east" (ost, east, etc.), many scholars believe that the Pagan Germans had a spring solar holiday, perhaps celebrated on the spring equinox.*p*Beltane (May Eve). Celebrated on the night of April 30th/day of May 1st. Like Yule, it's well-attested throughout Europe.*p*Litha (Solsticia, Midsummer, St. John's Eve). Litha is another compound holiday. Held on the night of June 23rd/day of June 24th (considered the summer solstice by the Romans and medieval Europeans). Called "Solsticia" in the Roman Empire, St. John's Eve after Christianization, and Midsummer throughout the Middle Ages. Like Yule and Beltane, it appears throughout Europe. *p*"Litha" is modern name for the festival. Litha is the Anglo-Saxon name for the months of June and July. It means "soft", or "the soft times", and is related to our word "lithe". However, it never appears to have been a name of the solstice (or, at least not a popular name). However medievalist J.R.R. Tolkien used Litha in _The Hobbit_, and as far as I can tell, the Church of All Worlds picked it up from there. *p*Lugnasadh (Lammas, Lunasa) appears to have been originally celebrated on the Kalend of August (August 1st, under the Roman calendar). However in the Middle Ages it was celebrated on the last Sunday in July. *p*Mabon (St. Michael's Day) is the only one of the eight festivals that's probably purely modern. The fall equinox falls in the middle of harvest and was not a traditional date for a festival. The English used St. Michael's Day (September 29th) as their fourth Quarter Day. "Mabon" is Old Welsh for "son" or "divine son". It's not historically the name of a holiday, and I'm not sure where it entered Neo-Paganism.*p*Samhain (All Saints' Day, All Hallow's Eve, Halloween) was celebrated on the night of October 31st, day of November 1st. The connection between Samhain and Halloween is confused. All Hallow's is a Christian holiday. In the early Middle Ages, the holiday had no fixed date -- each region celebrated the festival on a different day. Contrary to popular opinion, the Celtic Church celebrated All Hallow's in April, NOT on Samhain. (Sir James Frazer, in _The Golden Bough_ was the person responsible for the erroneous belief that the Celtic Church christianized Samhain as All Saints'.) Eventually Rome adopted the German churches' date (November 1st) and ordered all the various regions to begin celebrating on this day.*p*One warning about dates: the dates I've given are just that -- the dates, not the days, on which these holidays were traditionally celebrated.*p*The Julian calendar of the Roman Empire/Middle Ages was notoriously inexact. So in the sixteenth century, Pope Gregory invented the new, improved "Gregorian calendar", which we still use today. Differences between the Julian and the Gregorian date meant that Europe lost several days. And in Protestant England, they didn't adopt the Gregorian calendar until 1752. By that day, the British Isles had to lose eleven days to bring the two calendars into agreement.*p*So if you want to be a purist and celebrate your holidays on the same day (not date) that the medievals did, you should celebrate on:*p*Yule: January 6th (aka Twelfth Day, Epiphany, Old Christmas Day). And yes, that's 12 days, not 11 days, difference. I don't know why Old Christmas is one day off -- perhaps because it fell so close to Epiphany, which is a holiday in its own right.*p*Imbolg: February 11th/12th*p*Ostara: April 5th*p*Beltane: May 11th/12th (Old May Day)*p*Litha: July 4th/5th (Old Midsummer's, the Fourth of July) Many folklorist believe that the Fourth of July owes its fireworks/fires to the celebrations of Old Midsummer's Eve.*p*Lugnasadh: August 12th (Old Lammas)*p*Mabon: ?? October 10th was Old Michaelmas.*p*Samhain: November 11th/12th (aka Martinmas, Hollantide, and Old Samhain)*p* 4 to 8 to 4??? Taliesin_2 315 Sun Mar 7 16:05:39 1999