Re: Witch Stands up for Her Rights Infiniti Thu Oct 22 02:11:20 1998 Searles wrote,*br*: Infiniti,*br*:*br*: I'm glad you posted this message as the other message seemed *br*: to be confusing the issues of whether the lady in question *br*: should have a right to protest the Christianizing of her *br*: town's government through the use of signs.*br*<snip>*p*Sorry, I do have a tendancy to do that, don't I? No, I believe she has a right to stand up for her religious beliefs. I do think that this has gone farther than that, and in the wrong direction.*p*: There were two *br*: other issues that you've identified: whether she should have *br*: posted a news article that was against the wishes of her *br*: editor at the newspaper and how she should handle her *br*: problem resolution. I haven't addressed myself to those *br*: issues as one concerns matters of her personal conscience *br*: and freedom of the press vs. the rights of a business owner *br*: to do business both privately and within the public sector. *br*<snip>*p*I do think this is a touchy area, because I do believe in the freedom of speak, but I also believe a privately own newspaper has a right to decide what it will allow and will not. I know that some people forget that it is a business. A lucrative business, in many cases.*p*: Neither of those two issues is a direct concern of the focus *br*: of this site within The Summerlands.*p*True, but it does have some bearing on the article itself, and the mindset of the women and town.*p*: I've advocated standing up for one's religious rights when *br*: the government appears to favor one group over another which *br*: is against the law of the land.*p*And I agree whole heartedly.*p*: I have not advocated the *br*: government supporting one group over another. Also, my *br*: references to the American Revolution were intended to *br*: illustrate how important freedom of religion and *br*: self-government are to us all. They were not intended to *br*: convey the idea that the Pagan population of the planet *br*: should overthrow the rest of the populace.*p*I didn't mean to imply that you did. It is just how that last sentince struck me, for some reason.*p*: Such a concept *br*: was foreign to the patriots in this country who fought for *br*: our freedoms, my own ancestors among them.*p*My ancestors, too.*p*: I do agree that there are both confrontational and *br*: non-confrontational ways to effect change within any society *br*: and generally agree that one should be long suffering in the *br*: approach to resolving differences. That approach does have *br*: its limits but such limits are more peculiar to each *br*: person's temperament than they are to any general rule or *br*: procedure.*p*Such a thing as a non-confrontational approach is always the best approach when possible. However, small towns are very different from cities. I have lived in both and know from experiance, I don't know if you have. A confrontational approach used in a small town is VERY detremental to the WHOLE town. When you live in an area that does not have 911 and the Sheriff's office closes at 5:30, community is all you have for safety and security. often times all you have in an emergincy. Many places in the Ozarks of Missouri are this way. It is this way here, too. Having a confrontaional approach to most anything will almost always alienate you from the community. It is best for the community to do this. Religion has nothing to do with it.*p*Anyone of us could move to Republic Missouri and be confrontaional (about anything, doesn't matter) and have the result this woman has had. They would just have different words to yell than Devil Worshipper. This conflict is religious, and has religious slander.*p*: In the case of symbols that are general vs. those that are *br*: specific, their "generality" is determined by *br*: their lack of controversy within any society. If it's not *br*: broken don't fix it is a good rule of thumb. The first *br*: instance of objection mandates an investigation of the *br*: causes of such objections. Precedents are established and *br*: histories are recorded and maintained to serve as a guide *br*: during future applications and disputes. I don't believe *br*: anyone has objected to the symbols on our *br*: "script," though I would welcome any information *br*: that can expand my knowledge of that matter. In the case of *br*: the "fish" symbol, I can only assume it is the one *br*: associated with Christianity in the common vernacular and *br*: not one that is more generic.*p*I agree, and the fish symbol is the Christian one.*p*: Public matters are a matter of public law, while private *br*: matters and expressions are the provenance of individual *br*: expression and freedom. One individual's rights stop where *br*: they infringe on the rights of another individual. Such *br*: matters when disputed, become a matter of public arbitration *br*: and judgment so that the peace and harmony of communities *br*: are maintained.*p*Agreed. Most people living in small communities would agree. however, and law suit for money does not seem like an attempt to settle things peacefully or hormoniously, IMO. There are channels that can be taken if the town itself does not want to remove the symbol. I an pretty certain these channels have never been taken.*p*: In the case of the lady objecting to the *br*: use of the Christian "fish symbol," it is a *br*: matter of a free person objecting to a use of public funding *br*: to exclusively support a single religion, when that has *br*: never been the purpose of this country's government since *br*: its very beginnings. The only function of government in *br*: this country, in respect to religion, is to protect the free *br*: exercise of all religions, so long as that support does not *br*: compromise the inherent natural rights or the legal rights *br*: (as stipulated by law) of any individual. I certainly hope *br*: that you can agree to this limited role of the government in *br*: our religious lives. It is the foundation of our religious *br*: freedom in this country IMO.*br*<snip>*p*Yes, I agree. I do think, however, that more may be being read into this than is there. I have heard nothing that the town is trying to exclude any other religions. In my opinion, I think this is really just two groups of people exercising bad judgement - one happens to be Christian and one pagan. They goofed and put a fish on their seal, shame on them. I don't see this as a reason to put my family through Hell to sate some moral and/or religious injustice it MIGHT have been. I think my family is more important to me than a stupid fish on a small town seal in the middle of no where.*p*I also think that, when you have been "fighting" for something long enough, you can find all sorts of things that are devious behind a dumb mistake some farmers and small business owners made. Republic Missouri is not full or Christian suprimisist people. Like every other small town I have seen, it is full of people who have to look to each other for support. And people make mistakes.*p*: If I'm attacked then I choose the best method of defending *br*: myself to halt the attack with the minimum of damage done to *br*: either side. I've sued and been sued. The only winners are *br*: the lawyers in the long run.*p*And the ACLU and the press in this case. No matter the outcome, this lady will never have a good life in this town. And, no matter the outcome, the town will be crippled. I am quiet certain that they will not be so quick to befriend and bring the next newcomer into the community, for fear of getting their hand bit.*p*The only winners in this are the lawyers with their fees, the ACLU who is getting rather good press for a small town in the middle of no where, and the press who can make money off this. This town has just been dragged through the mud because one lady couldn't handle herself.*p*: The energy put into lawsuits *br*: would be better spent in creating a good life for oneself *br*: and the world in which a person lives.*p*These things can never come to this women as long as she lives in that town. It definately wont happen if she wins the lawsuit. Wounds heal slow in small towns.*p*: If the attack was *br*: physical, then I would respond with the minimum physical *br*: force to stop the attack and insure my personal safety and *br*: the safety of the bystanders. The magnitude of this *br*: response would be tied to the dangers and harm involved in *br*: the attack and the possibilities that split seconds allow to *br*: a person under such assaults. I've been on the receiving *br*: end of such attacks in my life and that has been how I have *br*: actually responded.*p*I have been there, too. I have been on both sides, actually. I tend to like to make the other side look foolish in the process, it the threat is not too high. However, as someone who has been shot before, I have no problems with pulling the trigger, either, if I feel it is required.*p*: Do I think that there is a more productive way of handling *br*: differences than atttack and confrontation? Most certainly! *br*: What the situation was for this lady is not clear from the *br*: news account. One can imageine based on personal experience *br*: or one can receive varying levels of *br*: objective/subjective/complete/incomplete accounts and then *br*: decide. The entire purpose of posting the account here was *br*: to show that religious discrimintion isnot dead in this *br*: country by a long shot and that the news media actually are *br*: reporting such incidents without their previous levels of *br*: anti-witch bias.*br*:*br*: Searles*p*A good thing to do, and I missed the forest for the trees, it seems. You know, I never have seen a anti-witch report in the news. I have seen anti-vampire (cult, actually), and anti-Christian. I have also seem a number of small communities get stirred up because someone else decided to take offence to something that was not meant to offend.*p*I, for one, don't think this would have ever left Republic Missouri if Halloween wasn't so close. After all, this has been going for some time, and was not reported when the iron was hot, so to speak. It is also just one of many that have found their way to my email that could have been reported months ago. I fear that in a week or so, most, if not all, will go away and be replaced by more historical stuff, then move to humanitarian stuff, just in time for Christmas. Conventiant, that...*p*I really thing more is being read into this thing than is there. When all you see around you is the same type of people, it is not hard, and rather common, to forget that the rest of the world is not the same way. Small towns and police officers are notorious for doing this. I think if a coven of large Jewish temple had been in Republic, and established, before 1990, that fish would never have made it to the town seal. It should be noted that, in 1990, Mrs. Webb did not live in Republic. If the Christian townspeople want to spend their own mony to put a fish on thier town seal, I think they are a bit dumb, but I don't think they are prejudice, or trying to tell all non-Christians to leave. I do think that there are 6,000 Christians in Republic, and three Wicca, and of those, there are two groups with bad judgement.*p*Michael*br*Small town philosopher <G> and tome writer. Re: Witch Stands up for Her Rights Searles 98 Wed Oct 21 23:07:35 1998