Re: Witchcraft, Lycanthropy, Drugs & Disease (Review) Infiniti Sun Oct 11 23:20:25 1998 Jenny wrote,*br*: <g>). Historical witchcraft is a very complex, *br*: emotional subject -- you've got to question everything.*p*Oh, you've obviously never been by the Pub. Asking questions is my second most favorite thing to do around here. <G> You might not want to know what the first one is.*p*: You're right -- they can't.*p*Ah, I like the sound of that. I rarely hear those words.*p*: Because it depends on how *you* *br*: define "Pagan". The division between Christianity *br*: and Paganism isn't as neat as most people make it out.*p*I tend to, or I used to tend to, use the Webster's version of the word by which I am 9/10th not pagan. I try to avoid the term entirely, actually, because I tend to be called Wiccan when I mention I'm pagan, and I am not. I am, by modern standings, pagan, and I don't even like the word, sounds weird, IMO. I just like being me. :)*p*: The "Paganism" that appears in the witch trials is *br*: almost invariably Christo-Paganism. The "witch" *br*: considers herself Christian despite the fact that her *br*: beliefs, spells, and customs have a pre-Christian origin. *br*: It is the Church, not the witch, who generally labels such *br*: things "Pagan" or "Satanic."*p*Is a Christo-pagan anything like a Catho-witch?*p*: I've noticed that, too, and I find it very disturbing. *br*: There are so many people who feel I'm *br*: "dishonoring" my ancestors when I say that *br*: "only" 40,000 - 60,000 people died. As if there *br*: was some quota we had to meet before it became a bona fide *br*: atrocity!*p*I've had people argue with me that the Burning Times was, by and far, the biggest atrocity to ever visit itself upon humanity. It was bad, but let's be serious. The devastation from the Roman Empire and their conquest of Gaul and Britan were a bit more damaging. They were out removing whole cultures. Heck, WWII was far worse, at least in the Burning Times you had the hint of justice and a trial. Again, probably just my opinion.*p*: Another disturbing fact: the estimate that nine million *br*: witches died in the Burning Times originated in the late *br*: 19th century. But it didn't become popular until after *br*: World War II -- after the six million deaths of the *br*: Holocaust became widely known. I swear it's almost as if *br*: some people were trying to "one-up" the Jews, to *br*: "prove" that we were the most persecuted minority *br*: ever.*p*Some people are simply not happy unless they are miserable, and "opressed". You give me proof, I'll listen, but I don't put any faith in that concept. Sounds a lot like the Millian Man March to me, the numbers just don't add up unless you have some strange type of math I have never heard of.*p*: Which raises an interesting question -- if the people who *br*: died in the persecution weren't "real" witches, *br*: why should a Witch study the Burning Times?*p*Oh, I didn't mean to say it shouldn't be studied and learned from, but it does shift the importance and message to be derived from it. The Church didn't try to destroy paganism. Christianity tried to cut it's own hand off, and some of "us" got in the way. It should be studied, and it has direct connection to modern politics, too.*p*: I have no doubt that these "witches" would *br*: disagree with me calling them "Pagan". If I could *br*: somehow meet Anna Gamperle and say, "Sister! I, too, *br*: am a Witch and have renounced the Christian faith of my *br*: childhood", she would immediately flee, screaming in *br*: terror, for the safety of the nearest church.*p*Hehehehe. I have had similar reactions to some of "us". There are some pagans out there that really make my long for my youth and Christianity. There are Christians that I see the same way, and make me glad I am not one.*p*: I respect her self-definition -- if she thinks of herself as *br*: a Christian, then she is Christian in my book. But I also *br*: see echoes of the Old Ways in her wisdom, and that more than *br*: anything else is what draws me.*p*Yes, many people kept their former ideals and mannerisms when being "reborn" to Christianity, and, as families are, these get handed down from generation to generation. But Christianity is more than just the Ten Commandments and Church services. It is, above all, the devotion to God (Jehovah) and Christ. Though I have had perisheners argue that it also requires certain ways of life, and what not, I have had priests and pastors say that individuals such as the Gamperle family were possibly more Christian than half their congregation. I like the latter more than the former. In my book, Christian is not a way of life as much as a religious choice. Lifestyle just *tends* to come with it.*p*: <g> I swear there are people who, when you say *br*: "Christ", their heads spin around like Linda *br*: Blair's in _The Exorcist_. Wanna get 'em really mad? Use *br*: the word "Christo-Pagan" a lot. Speaking from *br*: personal experience, nothing will torque a Pagan *br*: fundamentalist faster <g>. It's like saying *br*: "Judeo-Christian" around white supremicists.*p*I used Catho-pagan once in front of a friend (a pastor) and a church member. The member got so ticked off, the situation almost got physically violent. Doug (the former), had to lead him from the chapel. Doug has a philosophy that I bring this out in people... I think he may be on to something, there.*p*: I agree. If you take a hard-line definition of *br*: "Pagan" (ie., completely non-Christian)... well, I *br*: only know of one trial that involves a Pagan! Even if you *br*: use my immensely broad "Christo-Pagan" category, *br*: I'd still guess that only 5%-10% of the trials involve *br*: significant levels of Paganism.*p*Note for future generations: the choice of being a Catho-witch or a mid-wife should be reconsidered at least once. <weak grin>*p*: One of the things I'm *br*: going to try to do is to write "Witch" when I'm *br*: talking about Pagans, and "witch" when I just mean *br*: someone who was accused of witchcraft. But to date I *br*: haven't been very consistant about this. <g>*p*I like this idea.*p*: <LOL!> Boy, I hear you! I have been told SOOO many *br*: times that I'm a running dog of the Patriarchy... or a *br*: closet Christian... I get it from both sides: from Pagans *br*: who're furious that I'm dishing the Nine Million Martyrs, *br*: and from fellow feminists who're enraged that I say most *br*: feminist writing on this subject is stereotypical and *br*: inaccurate.*p*You are a feminist? Cool, I'm a "pagan" fundie (more or less), nice to meet you. :) Two sides of the same boat can work together. Tim's going to have a fit over this. Hehehe.*p*: Some days it makes me want to do a take-off on Sojourner *br*: Truth's famous speech, _Ain't I a Woman?_: "I can *br*: think -- and ain't I a feminist? I can read original *br*: manuscripts, balance conflicting evidence, and construct a *br*: logical argument -- and ain't I a feminist?"*p*(Deborah, plug your ears please)*p*Ah, don't listen to them. If I did that, I'd be under the impression I was the only Republican who doesn't want Clinton impeached, and I _know_ that's not true. Really, a nice fine (a years pay will do), or federally forced abstinance would be nice, or better yet, a few hours of community labor! <G>*p*(Deborah, you can listen again)*p*Anyway, if you know you are a feminist, then you are. If you are pagan, you are. What *they* think doesn't matter, they are insugnificant if they say otherwise. I have a feminist in my office, and it took me over a year to get her to "fess up" to it, because she got tired of the more "inspired" telling her she wasn't. I like having her around, she keeps me in line. :)*p*: <g> Flattery will get you everywhere.*p*And you will surely hear more of it. <G>*p*: I have to *br*: have my parents dress me before I can go out!*p*Oh, you don't have to bother on my account. Oops, hormones got me again, I'm supposed to be saving those for my section, sorry. <G>*p*Michael Re: Witchcraft, Lycanthropy, Drugs & Disease (Review) Jenny 57 Sun Oct 11 18:05:25 1998