The Charm of Making
Copyright by Searles O'Dubhain
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This is a discussion of the three steps in accomplishing Celtic Magick and is based upon underworld journeys as well as the charm of the "Dragon's Breath."
Celtic Workshop #13 - The "Charm of Making"
This Workshop was presented and hosted by Searles O'Dubhain. We covered some concepts touching upon the beginnings of all things. We also covered how symbols are used to describe reality and Magick. We discussed the necessity for *belief* in performing Magick. I led a discussion about a ritual that was centered around the Charm of "Making". The archetypes and the Quarters used in Celtic Magical systems were also discussed. Some preliminary socializing soon gave way to the formal presentation and discussion:
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Celtic Workshop #13 - The "Charm of Making"
Before I begin a few quick remarks are in order. As always, if any of you have a comment or question please use the "?" or "!" to signal me. I will answer or call on you in sequence and we will use "ga" to signal we have finished our remarks. Now we begin......
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Opening Remarks
Tonight I attempt to tie together the beliefs of the Celts in Cosmologies and Magick or Draíocht to what we know of the world and reality through the study of modern science and more recent Magical systems and their resulting Cosmological models. It is my hope that all of this discussion will clarify the history of the Celts and the workings of the Druids. The highest form of Draíocht was the Charm of "Making". This is the essence of creation by the use of the Will. It is into the Cauldron of Primordial Creation that I plunge tonight as a Midwife to Magick. Draíocht shall live again! The Dragon will once again be reborn!
In many mythologies and some philosophies, Chaos is the void that existed in the beginning of all things before even time existed and from which all things have arisen.
"The notion that creation came from nothing (creatio ex nihilo) appears in several accounts of creation. The biblical story of creation contained in the Book of GENESIS begins with a formless, watery chaos that God shapes into the ordered world. The hymn of creation from India's epic Rig Veda (see VEDAS) describes the primordial situation as one of neither existence nor nonexistence and further states that no one, not even the gods, knows who produced the universe. In marked contrast is an Egyptian myth attributing creation to the deity Khepri. In this myth Khepri states that when he came into being, being itself came into being; all other beings were then produced from his actions and his body; but before him there was only nonbeing. Among the Polynesians, creation myths emphasize the dimensions of void space and the qualities of darkness as the primordial structures of creation. In these myths, the initial state of darkness and void in which the deity dwells is later transformed and the forms of the universe then emerge. Creation is thus predicated on a void or a nothingness --a reality totally different from any form or substance of the created order. In addition, the deities who create from nothing or emerge from this void are given a new and special kind of power; for though creators of the world, they remain distinct from it in their originative form." .......quoted from The Online Edition of GROLIER'S ACADEMIC AMERICAN Encyclopedia, Copyright (c) 1993, Grolier Electronic Publishing.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Magick is the ability to cross the void of Chaos and to create order in the universe that surrounds us. The primary way in which this creation occurs is through the focus of our own Wills.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) "The Void was without Form"
"Chaos theory, a modern development in mathematics and science, provides a framework for understanding irregular or erratic fluctuations in nature. Chaotic systems are found in many fields of science and engineering. The study of their dynamics is an essential part of the burgeoning science of complexity--the effort to understand the principles of order that underlie the patterns of all real systems, from ecosystems to social systems to the universe as a whole." ..quoted from The Online Edition of GROLIER'S ACADEMIC AMERICAN Encyclopedia, Copyright (c) 1993, Grolier Electronic Publishing.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) The BIG BANG theory of the creation of the universe is widely accepted by astronomers. "It holds that the universe began with the explosive expansion of a single, extremely condensed state of matter. A further development of this model, known as INFLATIONARY THEORY, describes the original condensed matter as arising from virtually empty space. Whether the universe will expand forever, slow to a halt, or contract again and continue to oscillate indefinitely from one big bang to the next is the subject of ongoing speculation....." Charles Long .......quoted from The Online Edition of GROLIER'S ACADEMIC AMERICAN Encyclopedia, Copyright (c) 1993, Grolier Electronic Publishing.
Out of Nothingness was Reality formed. The diversity of Reality is due to the two great forces of separation: projection and reception (the male and the feminine aspects of Power). From this duality of all things, the rest of Creation is manifested. This manifestation can be described and modeled in many ways. I have chosen to limit myself briefly to two such descriptions during tonight's workshop. The first such model or description is the science of "quantum mechanics". According to this area of science, everything is composed of waves and the interaction between wave fronts. With two primary and distinctly different sources of waveforms, we get interference patterns. These lines of intersection have their own "nature" and give rise to other "quantum effects" in their own localized area of the space/time continuum. This ongoing process of interaction and manifestation can create Infinite Combination in Infinite Diversity (IDIC). I will discuss this concept later.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) The other way in which two differing states can create their own "reality" is through the laws of Boolean Logic and Algebra. In digital design and simulation techniques, this fact is well known. I work in such areas and can reduce any system to a series of "min" and "max" terms of inputs and "truth tables". This Boolean discipline of using "min and max terms" has given birth to the Cyberspace that we currently inhabit. I suggest that our present existence is no more than a "real-time" simulation in a greater system and that our creative/destructive interactions are constantly birthing new realities and new creations. We are each a "star" as some Magical systems teach.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) All Physical and Magical systems have hidden controls that operate from outside the program flow (another word for this flow might be called "life"). This outside intervention might be what appears in the form of "Magick" to an internal observer of that system. The operating system for the host platform, such as DOS, determines the form of the relationships between all programs, files and other processes. A magical way of stating this might be, "As Above, So Below". Tonight, I have discussed only two ways that some realities are postulated and created. In the wide variety of the Infinite Cosmos, Diversity is carried to the extremes. Anything CAN and DOES happen!
One way man has attempted to understand and quantify his universe is through the use of symbols. The most often used symbols are numbers, letters and sigils. The Jewish Cabbala, the Celtic Ogham and the other Magical alphabets are good examples of the use of such symbols to order and understand most physical, spiritual and Magical relationships. I have talked about Ogham and Fionn's Wheel/Ladder in previous workshops. I have also talked about the Celtic Cosmology. Tonight I will briefly touch on numbers and math. Please refer to the previous Celtic Workshops #1, 2, 3, 5 and the Online Wicca Cabbala Threads for more information in those areas. Another kind of symbol that can describe our reality is a relatively new form of mathematics called Fractals.
"A modern mathematical theory that radically departs from traditional EUCLIDEAN GEOMETRY, fractal geometry describes objects that are self-similar, or scale symmetric. This means that when such objects are magnified, their parts are seen to bear an exact resemblance to the whole, the likeness continuing with the parts of the parts and so on to infinity. Fractals, as these shapes are called, also must be devoid of transnational symmetry--that is, the smoothness associated with Euclidean lines, planes, and spheres. Instead a rough, jagged quality is maintained at every scale at which an object can be examined. The nature of fractals is reflected in the word itself, coined by mathematician Benoit B. Mandelbrot from the Latin verb frangere, "to break," and the related adjective fractus, "irregular and fragmented." "
(2-5,O'Dubhain) The science of fractals has been found to exist within many natural formations . Fractals are found everywhere we look, from the shape of coastlines to the geometry found in cellular divisions. Most dynamical systems that change their behavior over time become CHAOTIC in nature and can also be described using fractals. The reason I mention fractals tonight is twofold. First, fractals show us mathematically how reality and life are manifested. As I said earlier, fractal geometry and mathematics are a fairly recent discovery. One important type of Fractal that is found in nature is called a Mandelbrot set. This particular set of fractals becomes inherently unstable as one looks closer at it's component fractals. What is so interesting about this fact and study is that FRACTALS in the FORM OF MANDELBROT SETS have been appearing as CROP CIRCLES on the Salisbury Plains. This is the same area that is located close by both Stonehenge and Avebury. What is the source of these symbols? Where is this information coming from? Are these crop circles some sort of Magical alphabet or symbols? Are they communicated to us across time and space from other Magicians or other Entities? If they are such symbols, has this phenomena occurred before in the past? Did the Druids observe, record and understand this type of information during their times?
(2-5,O'Dubhain) My second point is that our knowledge of Magick is itself like a fractal. With each piece of information we receive from our searches into the nature of Magick, we discover more and more questions. This gives rise to more and more associations and consequently more questions and disorder. Our attempts to totally understand Magick by close inspection consequently results in chaotic thinking. We see fractals everywhere when we look at the world. This world seems to be a fractal. Everything from shorelines, earthquakes, cell structure to computer graphics have been found to obey the laws of fractals. Perhaps Magick and the heavenly cosmologies are fractals of the Higher Will? Perhaps our True Will is a fractal? Maybe fractals are the new Ogham, the new Wheel of Fionn?
If an idea can be reduced to mathematical or Magical symbols, then it can also be manipulated or transformed. These relation- ships are called "veils" or "pathworkings" in Magical works. In mathematics, such transformations occur frequently. What is complex in one domain is simple in another. Engineers use such techniques as vector and tensor analysis to handle complex systems all the time. Magicians use the principle, "As Above , So Below" to aid their Magical Workings. Sometimes this Magical work is also done while using symbolic logic to aid in the act of manifesting or "making" a new creation. We will next discuss how some of these Magical transformations are done.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) "Vibratory States"
The addition of external energy to a molecule or the introduction of additional molecules into a solution causes its electron configuration to change. The electron "jumps" across an energy barrier to obtain a different orbit or geometry. the Molecule changes its behavior, sometimes with amazing results. This change in electrons through levels or states of energy is directly analogous to the levels or states of vibration that a Magician goes through to "resonate" with other spiritual forces. These principles of resonance and vibration are the keys to the techniques of OOBE and energy transfer in Magical systems. To discover how we as Magical/ Spiritual entities can go through these types of transformed states, I looked at my own experiences, once again.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) "Personal Experiences"
The keys to working Magick are BELIEF, DISCIPLINE and FOCUS. Focus is a matter of personal ability and is sharpened through practice and effort. Discipline is inherit to our very natures. Belief is absolutely necessary to any Magical Work. I have had three types of personal experiences that are the foundation of my BELIEF in MAGICK.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) "The All from the None"
This experience I have discussed before. It is the first veil that must be passed to obtain BELIEF in Magick and the resulting Powers. Briefly stated, I was able to detach from the ordinary (while conscious) and encounter Spirit and Magical Beings. These experiences have reinforced my ability to work Astrally and Magically. The secrets to this experience are meditation, inner quietness and the increased vibrational level of the spirit or "ecstasy".
(2-5,O'Dubhain) By going into the "void" of Nothingness, I was touched by the Power of the Akasha! Anyone can do this, if they are willing to put in the time and effort to meditate to achieve inner "quietness". The "Void" is the place where the Will can focus to create and produce all Magick!
(2-5,O'Dubhain) "The None From the All"
These are experiences I have had from "lucid dreaming". I have basically been able to go anywhere and do anything in my dreams. I have had many revelations and Super Normal experiences in these dreams. I guess the most outrageous experience was experiencing "death". Some deaths were just an abrupt end to one existence while manifesting into another body and another existence. One particular "death" was at the center of an exploding sun or bomb. I was literally blown into Nothingness and Non-Existence. I "floated" there in endless time without thought or being. I just was. Only my Will still existed and through the exertion of my Will I was able to awaken into my body once more. This was not and ordinary dream. In fact, I'm not really sure this is the Reality I started out in! <GGG> A Powerful insensitive to learn more about Magick (to prevent such a thing from ever happening again)!!!!!
IDIC is borrowed from the Vulcan, Mr. Spock. It stands for Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. This basically means the Universe is filled with possibilities and that anything can (and will) happen. This is all those strange events that can be dismissed if taken one at a time but will stagger you if you keep a log of them. This includes such things in my life as: Flying or "floating" in the air by myself, reading minds, seeing the future, seeing creatures that are in another plane, hearing the music of the Sìdhe and incredible feats of strength and speed (that could not possible have happened). All these many events taken together point to a variety of techniques that people can do. The secret is in remembering how we did it!!! Or maybe in finding a really excellent teacher. I am the worst of students but I am very persistent!<GGG>
(2-5,O'Dubhain) "The Charm of Making"
The following is the merest sketch of an outline for performing the Charm of Making, the very same chant that Merlin was heard to use in the movie "Excalibur". Much of this ritual comes from the following works: "The 21 Lessons of Merlin", "Celtic Magic', "Witta", "The Irish Celtic Magical Tradition" and the "Sacred Cauldron". Some of it is changed to suit my personal (*Irish*) preferences!<G>
(2-5,O'Dubhain) "Circles of Draíocht "
Druids' Circles are very similar to other Magical Circles. Each direction should have a candle and color associated with it. (I use Red for East, White for South, Grey or Blue for West and Black for North). I also have candles for the God and the Goddess. These are usually Green and Red respectively. I light the candles as the Spirits are invoked.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) "The Guardians"
The Guardian of the East Quarter is Esras associated with the Power of Air. The sacred city of this Spiritual realm is Gorias. The Celtic Deities usually associated with this Quarter are Nuada and Scathach. The sacred treasure or weapon is the invincible sword. The Magical Deity for the elemental Powers or the wind singers and sprites is Paraldas, ruler of the Sylphs, Zephyrs and the Winged Sprites. This direction is most often associated with ideas, thoughts, inspiration and psychic powers. Ritual work for this direction is associated with dawn, sunrise, Spring, harmony, travel and freedom. A suitable invocation of the Guardians might be: "Tugaim cuireadh do Garda de Soir! Tugaim cuireadh do Dúile de Gaoth! Tugaim cuireadh do Esras de Gorias!"
Translation: "I give invitation to the Guardian of the East! I give invitation to the Element of the Winds! I invite Esras, Master of Inspiration!"
Pronunciation: "TUG-im KIR-oo gu GAAR-du gu SKULL! TUG-im KIR-oo gu DOO-li gu GWA! TUG-im KIR-oo gu ES-rah gu GOR-ah!
The Guardian of the South Quarter is Uiscias associated with the Power of Fire. The sacred city of this Spiritual realm is Findias. The Celtic Deities usually associated with this Quarter are Lugh and Brigit. The sacred treasure or weapon is the flaming spear. The Magical Deity for its elemental Powers or Salamanders and Firedrakes is Djinas, ruler of the Consciousness and flames. This direction is most often associated with Action, Passion and Change. Ritual work for this direction is associated with Summer, noon, sexuality and purification. A suitable invocation of the Guardians might be: "Tugaim cuireadh do Garda de O'Dheas! Tugaim cuireadh do Dúile de Tine! Tugaim cuireadh do Uiscias de Findias!"
Translation: "I give invitation to the Guardian of the South! I give invitation to the Elements of the Fire! I invite Uiscias, Master of Conscious Action"
Pronunciation: "TUG-im KIR-oo gu GAAR-du gu OWE-yass! TUG-im KIR-oo gu DOO-li gu CHIN-e! TUG-im KIR-oo gu ISH-kah gu FIN-jah!"
The Guardian of the West Quarter is Semias associated with the Power of Water or the Sea. The sacred city of this Spiritual realm is Murias. The Celtic Deities usually associated with this Quarter are Manannán and the Cailleach. The sacred treasure or weapon is the cauldron. The Magical Deity for its elemental Powers or Nymphs and Undines is Niksas, ruler of the depths of the Sea and the spirits of the waters. This direction is most often associated with Emotions, healing and Marriage. Ritual work for this direction is associated with Fall, sunset, plants, the subconscious mind and dreams. A suitable invocation of the Guardians might be: "Tugaim cuireadh do Garda de Siar! Tugaim cuireadh do Dúile de Muir! Tugaim cuireadh do Semias de Murias!"
Translation: "I give invitation to the Guardian of the West! I give invitation to the Elements of the Mystical Sea! I invite Semias, Master of the Mind's Deep Waters!"
Pronunciation: "TUG-im KIR-oo gu GAAR-du gu SHEER! TUG-im KIR-oo gu DOO-li gu MWIRR! TUG-im KIR-oo gu SEM-ahs gu MUR-ahs!"
The Guardian of the North Quarter is Morfesa, associated with the Power of Earth. The sacred city of this Spiritual realm is Falias. The Celtic Deities usually associated with this Quarter are the Morrigan and the Dagda. The sacred treasure or weapon is the Stone of Fal. The Magical Deity for the elemental Powers or Gnomes and Dwarfs is Ghobas, ruler of the inhabitants of the Earth and a crystal spirits. This direction is most often associated with Destiny, Prosperity and Fate as well as Magick. Ritual work for this direction is associated with Winter, night, midnight, self will and treasures. A suitable invocation of the Guardians might be: "Tugaim cuireadh do Garda de O'Thuaigh! Tugaim cuireadh do Dúile de Talamh is Cloch! Tugaim cuireadh do Morfesa de Falias!"
Translation: "I give invitation to the Guardian of the North! I give invitation to the Elements of Stone and Earth! I invite Morfesa, Master of Destiny and Magick!"
Pronunciation: "TUG-im KIR-oo gu GAAR-du gu owe HOO-ee! TUG-im KIR-oo gu DOO-li gu TA-loo is KLOKH! TUG-im KIR-oo gu MOR-fes-ah gu FAL-ah!
The Center of the Circle is protected by the Power of the God and the Goddess and the balance and diversity that They each manifest and control. This is the province of the Goddess of Sovereignty, Macha, and the Horned God or the Hunter, Fir Benn. The center is protected by the combined Powers of the Quarters and their Masters. A suitable invocation of the Spirit might be: "Tugaim cuireadh do Anáil Fein! Tugaim cuireadh do Dúile de Anam! Tugaim cuireadh do Grian agus Geala! Beannachtai' DE' agus mBANDE' againn!"
Translation: "I give invitation to the Souls of our Ancestors! I give invitation to the Element of All Spirits! I give invitation to the Sun and the Moon! The Blessings of the God and Goddess be upon us!"
Pronunciation: "TUG-im KIR-oo gu GAAR-du gu AN-aal FINN! TUG-im KIR-oo gu DOO-li gu AN-um! TUG-im KIR-oo gu GREE-un AG-us GYAL-a! BAN-uck-ta JAY AG-us BAN-jay UG-een!"
(2-5,O'Dubhain) "The Words of Power"
After the Guardians have been called, then the Words of Power Are Spoken and the Rite or Sign of Three Rays is performed for each of the Quarters.
This is the name of the God/dess of All and is intoned three times while making the appropriate hand gestures,
"EEEEE-Ahhhhhh-OOOOO". "EEEEE-Ahhhhhh-OOOOO". "EEEEE-Ahhhhhh-OOOOO".
(2-5,O'Dubhain) "Threshold Experiences"
If a portal to another plane or place is to be opened then the following Charm of Making is to be said three times (this Charm uses the Power of Sea and Stone):
"A ELFNTODD DWYR SINDDYN DUW CERRIG YR FFERLLURUG NWYN; OS SYRIAETH ECH SAFFAER TU FEWR ECHLYN MOR, NECROMBOR LLUN"
(2-5,O'Dubhain) "Dragon's Breath"
If something is to be caused to happen or prevented then the following Charm of Making is intoned three times (this charm invokes the Powers of Fire and Air):
"ANAIL NATHROCK UTHVASS BETHUDD DOCHIEL DIENVE"
At this point the Power has been raised. The Will of the Draoi' should be directed and stated forcefully in the direction of greatest Power using the sign for that Quarter. Once the work, is completed, the God/desses and Guardians should be thanked and the Power Earthed by lowering both hands to the ground while kneeling. The Circle is opened in the reverse of its creation and the bounty of the Land and Tuatha should be enjoined and enjoyed by all.
This is the end of the prepared presentation on the Charm of "Making". This and "Pathworking" are the two most powerful abilities of a Druid.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Go raibh mhaith Agaibh!
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Heyheyhey!! GA Freepowder!
(2-2,Freepowder) What does all that translate to ? GA
(2-2,Freepowder) I mean the gaelic and welsh?
(2-2,Freepowder) <and the other too for that matter>
(2-5,O'Dubhain) I'll have to research out the Welsh I asked Gwydion about the Welsh and he was having problems with it since it was a very old dielect. I'll post translation for the Irish tommorrow. As far as interpreting the statements on fractals and Mandelbrott sets...I have to say that I was attempting to show just how arbitrary our reality really is and why Magick really works as well as it does.
(2-2,Freepowder) ok, I suspect it's something like 'Hey!! Over Here!!
(2-5,O'Dubhain) The Irish is something like I give invitation to Guardians of Air...etc. The Welsh is something like Kathyrn was saying in her posts today. FP>I know you have more questions but let's let Nan ga first!<G> ga Nan
(2-22,Jehana Silverwing) hello.
(2-17,Rhianna) hi Jehana!
(2-24,Nan) i've worked with systems that have different meanings
(2-24,Nan) and associations for the directions, I assume that
(2-24,Nan) it's best to work with what has personal signifigance
(2-24,Nan) for us?
(2-17,Rhianna) nan>Me too!]
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Nan>Absolutely...the archetypes are focal points for your own will....but they are also empowered by many,many mages using the same ones. It's similar to how one's own Circle retains a residue of Power after a ritual. ga
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) ?
(2-24,Nan) that's it for now.....more questions brewing though <g> ga
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Jeremy & Marion ga
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) I was wondering, as this all is being related
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) to creation and making, what your take is on
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) the lack of creation myths among the Celts.GA
(2-5,O'Dubhain) The Celts seem to have been around forever!<GGG> I think it is inherit to their belief in Re-incarnation that they don't consider a need for a beginning as such.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Although the Tuatha de Dannan did come from the "sky" or other realms before they came to Ireland. J&M more? ga
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) ga (for now<G>)
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Ok I might add that the Celts considered that "making" is only a projection of the Spirit into this plane of existence and that many of their fables and myths should be interpreted as having 3 levels of meaning in a similar manner to that of the Cabbala.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) LAW is next ga
(2-21,LAW) On the lack of Celtic creation stories. The "Sky"
(2-21,LAW) is probally most correct as proved by the
(2-21,LAW) archeological evidence of the orgins of the Celts
(2-21,LAW) through their migrations from the Near East.
(2-21,LAW) As they migrated from this area they only retained
(2-21,LAW) the original story, "myth", that could be carried
(2-21,LAW) out by oral tradition.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) The Barddas texts in Wales tell of the manifestation of existence from Abred into this plane in a similar manner to most of the other IndoEuropean
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) ?
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Creation Myths. The Irish never had such a myth or story for their own creation.
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) !
(2-5,O'Dubhain) ga LAW more?
(2-21,LAW) No, I'm done. <GA>
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Thanks ok Nan then J&M
(2-5,O'Dubhain) ga Nan
(2-24,Nan) 2 questions.....any thoughts about the creation of new archetypes/focal points?
(2-24,Nan) (Elvis, Bozo, Dan Quayle <g>) ......
(2-24,Nan) and 3 levels???? what are they?
(2-22,Jehana Silverwing) <grin>
(2-17,Rhianna) you forgot Beavis & Butthead!
(2-5,O'Dubhain) The archetypes that currently exist are there for a reason. 1. They are the Masters of the Occult Cities where the Tuatha de Dannan learned about Magick in the first place. The possibility exists that these are real entities. The second reason they are used as archetypes is that their names are synonymous with the elements that correspond to the directions they Guard. New archetypes would have to be pretty well integrated in your belief system to have the prime requisites of Magick and they are BELIEF and FOCUS.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) gotta call on J&M now
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) Thanks. As you brought up Barddas and Abred, I wanted
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) to ask about this. My understanding is that this sort
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) of stuff is considered to have been mostly invented
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) by Iolo 200 years ago. Also, LAW mentioned Celts
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) coming from the near east?GA
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Ok...Iolo did a lot of "freelancing" on some of his stuff and schools out on just how much of it really fits in. The Celts are known to have originated in the Caucasis area above the Black Sea in the East and migrated in at least two waves across Europe. There are still Celtic areas in Asia Minor for instance. I have a geneology of my family that goes back over 3000 years through Egypt and the Scythians.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) BTW i didn't answer Nan's second question.
(2-24,Nan) understandable since the first was so weird <g>
(2-2,Freepowder) I have a geneology of my family that goes back to 1952 in Utah.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) She asked about three levels of interpretation on the stories. The three levels I'm most familiar with is the Spiritual, Mental and Physical meanings of the storues. As with everything else a lot of the meanings are obscure today, but each symbol had a specific interpretaion in it's day. The Bible in the original Hebrew can be read three ways....maybe a formula for rocket fuel there somewhere!<GGG>
(2-5,O'Dubhain) ok Trailstalker is next ga
(2-29,Trailstalker) Several items
(2-29,Trailstalker) 1. How many archetypes are you talking about?
(2-29,Trailstalker) Jung referred to 22 as corresponding with the major arcana of the Tarot... same thing?
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Ok...The Major Celtic archetypes are the 25 Ogham and the 4 Masters of the Occult cities. There is also an entire bevy of Gods and Goddesses as well as the Triple Goddess and the Dual natured God (Light and Dark). This multitude of Deities is due to the Clan structure of the Celts and the fact that they traveled so much....embracing new deities as they encountered them. The Ogham pretty much match up to the Tarot!BTW
(2-5,O'Dubhain) next question TS?
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) !
(2-29,Trailstalker) ok... sounds like a different cast... wonder if they would cross translate.
(2-29,Trailstalker) In reading your directions I noticed that they were
(2-29,Trailstalker) one "click" off what I keep finding in Native
(2-29,Trailstalker) American info.
(2-29,Trailstalker) I've encountered this before.
(2-29,Trailstalker) Can you comment on the 1/4 turn diff between Europe and N. America?
(2-2,Freepowder) Right on TS!
(2-5,O'Dubhain) I was hoping Freepowder could answer that for us!<G>
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) especially with what I've read about harvest kings...<G>
(2-29,Trailstalker) Your Air/North = my Air/East
(2-29,Trailstalker) for instance
(2-29,Trailstalker) South = Water
(2-29,Trailstalker) West = Earth
(2-29,Trailstalker) North = Air
(2-5,O'Dubhain) TS>I think it's a geographical difference more than anything else. The British Isles have different prevailing winds and weather patterns as well as the Lattitudes being higher.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) what do you think Freepowder?
(2-2,Freepowder) the main thing is that the Celts...
(2-2,Freepowder) lived in areas about 1000 mi
(2-2,Freepowder) further north...
(2-2,Freepowder) thus the sun comes up in a different place
(2-2,Freepowder) as does the moon
(2-2,Freepowder) not to mention the effect the trade winds
(2-2,Freepowder) have on the weather.
(2-2,Freepowder) Also a factor is the other cultures that the celts
(2-2,Freepowder) came in contact with in their travels. GA
(2-17,Rhianna) Great info, FP!
(2-29,Trailstalker) ok. that makes sense. So.. the $64 question now is... do we - living here on the N. American continent - shift the directions 1/4
(2-29,Trailstalker) click to be in alignment
(2-2,Freepowder) besides they are a contrary lot anywat
(2-29,Trailstalker) with what's correct on this continent or keep it the way our ancestors did 1/2 way around the world?
(2-2,Freepowder) Do what feel right. The God.* will understand, they have a sense of humor!
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Do what thou wilt.....
(2-2,Freepowder) but don't get caught
(2-5,O'Dubhain) I like them just the way they are!!<GG>
(2-5,O'Dubhain) es move fast!<GGG>
(2-29,Trailstalker) ok that's all from me for now. next?
(2-5,O'Dubhain) It's pretty much up to us...I like tradition myself.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) LAW ga
(2-7,Arianna) for someone who just popped in...this looks like a fun group
(2-21,LAW) Nan>I think that the concept of "us" creating
(2-21,LAW) Archetypes would be a contradiction in
(2-21,LAW) term. And I think that is what OD was was getting
(2-21,LAW) at. J & M> Recent archeological
(2-21,LAW) evidence from the Univ. of Pa. Celtic studies
(2-21,LAW) section in conjunction with the Sumerian
(2-21,LAW) studies section have traced the Caucasic origins
(2-21,LAW) of the Celts to an earlier migration of
(2-21,LAW) peoples from the Sumerian area located in the
(2-21,LAW) Persian Gulf. 1978 finding not
(2-21,LAW) released to the public as of this date.
(2-21,LAW) I also have some comment on the directions.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) go for it!<G>
(2-21,LAW) The questions that are being asked have been
(2-21,LAW) with us for sometime, meaning that they
(2-21,LAW) have been asked before.
(2-21,LAW) I agree with OD, and his answers on the directions.
(2-21,LAW) After researching this, the directions, for over
(2-21,LAW) three years, and through 30 or more
(2-21,LAW) cultures I have come to the same conclusion.
(2-21,LAW) The thing that is constant are the elements.
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) !
(2-21,LAW) Groups have varied their directional correspondance
(2-21,LAW) deprnding on a maltitude of factors.
(2-21,LAW) All of which I've seen here tonight.
(2-21,LAW) The answer for appling this to Magick seems to be
(2-21,LAW) keep the elements constant vary the directional
(2-21,LAW) alignment to suit the condition. <GA>
(2-17,Rhianna) PMJI, but I gotta go. G'night everyone,
(2-17,Rhianna) and Beannacht Leat!
(2-17,Rhianna) Thanks OD! :-)
(2-24,Nan) bye Rhianna
(2-5,O'Dubhain) You're welcome Rhianna!
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) Nos Da!
(2-29,Trailstalker) Bye Rhianna. Sla'n
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Ok Thanks LAW...Gonna do some more research on that... Summerian Origins.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Nan ga you're next then J&M, FP and TS
(2-5,O'Dubhain) ga Nan
(2-2,Freepowder) E infancy S youth W maturity N old age --no gender, but sky is male earth is female
(2-24,Nan) i just wanted to make a breif comment on creating new "archetypes".....
(2-24,Nan) i know of quite a few people (including myself) that are experimenting with doing exactly this,
(2-24,Nan) her name is Mother Shapiro, she started out as just a parking goddess but has begun to expand
(2-24,Nan) to other areas involved with travel and organization, and perhaps other areas that i don't know
(2-24,Nan) about. And it's working!\
(2-24,Nan) the appropriate call is....."Mother Shaprio dahling.. ...." (place request here)
(2-24,Nan) again, it must be done with all seriousness, belief and focus
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Nan sounds like the Archetypes went to the big city!!!!
(2-2,Freepowder) new york!
(2-5,O'Dubhain) It might be good to have modern archetypes
(2-2,Freepowder) hmmmm....wonder if neil is involved?
(2-5,O'Dubhain) but remember the old ones also worked very well
(2-29,Trailstalker) I can just see "fran dresler" as Mother Shapiro <G>
(2-24,Nan) i dunno if he's heard of her or not
(2-5,O'Dubhain) for the ancestors and their MAgick was very Powerful.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) To each their own I say.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) J&M are next ga
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) Nan: I know of this goddess, but have never heard the name. I call her the
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) Lady of Parking. Make sacrifice by using your turn signal always. I do, and get great parking places in unlikely places.
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) LAW: This is off subject, but I could use all info on origins of the celts.
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) I've been in a thread on this in Living History Forum.
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) As to the directions, I disagree that the elements are constant.
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) I have participated in several _very_ Celtic circles that had quite non-elemental quarters, and they worked well. After reading Rhys & Rhys's Celtic Heritage_ I even understood why. It's fascinating.
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) I ran a Samhain based on this non-elemental system and it worked _very_ well.
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) Briefly, it corresponds to geography in Ireland, although it works with Wales as well.
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) North (Ulster) is whence come the warriors, so it is represented by the Lord of Battles & Nuada's sword.
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) East was Ireland's bread basket. The Cauldron of plenty.
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) West was where the Tuatha first landed in Ireland (I think), and a direction associated with magic-- the spear, and the Many Gifted Lord.
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) The South was extremely mysterious. It gets the Lady, and the Lia Fal.GA
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Those are some interesting wrinkles on the directions I think we could debate the merits and reasons for quite sometime....The main thing to remember is to have archetypes that are consistant and "hang" together inthe working...those that help to focus the work and give it energy. I've seen lot's of different scenarios. The one's I used were the traditional ones based on the Battle of Moytura which was in the West of Ireland around County Sligo BTW.
(2-5,O'Dubhain) FP is next ga
(2-2,Freepowder) uh, well, I forgot <G>
(2-2,Freepowder) GA <G>
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Ok NAn your turn!<GGG>
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) !
(2-24,Nan) i don't think i had any more (did i?)
(2-5,O'Dubhain) you had your hand up
(2-5,O'Dubhain) ok TS is next then
(2-5,O'Dubhain) ga TS
(2-29,Trailstalker) my ?'s already answered. Thanks. <G>
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Ok J&M are next
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) I just wanted to add that I agree with what you said about consistancy...
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) I mentioned the non-elemental system to bring up that there are such things, but, so long as there is internal consistency, do what thou wilt!
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) ga
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) Oops, one more thing
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) I'd love to hear more about the direction derivation from the Battle of Moytura...
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) GA
(2-5,O'Dubhain) ok...looking in book
(2-2,Freepowder) Meanwhile back at the ranch......
(2-2,Freepowder) Gramma's beating off the indians,
(2-24,Nan) dum de dum dum
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Ok....It seems that the assignments of weapons and objects as well as Masters and Cities is all spelled out in the text. The only thing I can't find right off is the blasted directions. They are "Derived" from the attributes...I'll have to post a separate post to cover it all. I may put it in here as an appendix of sorts! Any other questions? Anyone? ga
(2-2,Freepowder) What book Odie?
(2-5,O'Dubhain) "Irish Celtic Magical Tradition" by Steve Blamires
(2-5,O'Dubhain) really an excellent book all around.
(2-2,Freepowder) I can't help then <G>
(2-2,Freepowder) but it's on my list
(2-17,Diane Greene) Hi, what's the topic?
(2-2,Freepowder) hmmm...looks like sennland is taking off <G>
(2-2,Freepowder) Celtic magick
(2-17,Diane Greene) ?
(2-24,Nan) (listeing to the sounds of sendlence)
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Dianne we are in the final phases of a Celtic Workshop
(2-5,O'Dubhain) about Magical directions and Charms of Making.
(2-17,Diane Greene) Hope I'm not imposing?
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Well gang I think it's a wrap for the night.
(2-2,Freepowder) I dunno Diane, how tall are you?
(2-24,Nan) thanks again OD....'nuther great one
(2-17,Diane Greene) Not very..
(2-2,Freepowder) Well Met you OD!
(2-24,Nan) sheesh freep
(2-21,LAW) Thank You OD, 93!
(2-5,O'Dubhain) You're welcome Nan...I learn as much as anyone these days!<G>
(2-2,Freepowder) Well you need to be really tall to be imposing. <G>
(2-5,O'Dubhain) 93 Llew!
(2-2,Freepowder) Llew? law griffes?
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) 93? What's all this 93?
(2-17,Diane Greene) Well, guess I'm not very imposing, midget and all that
(2-24,Nan) OD> you provide the framework for the learning, thanks
(2-21,LAW) That's Me! FP!
(2-2,Freepowder) Do you moonlight as a welsh God, LAW? <G>
(2-2,Freepowder) DG> just kidding, it's me job <G>
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) LAW> then watch out for flower children!
(2-24,Nan) well, folks, time for me to fly......adios
(2-2,Freepowder) JM> 93 is an obscure OTO reference to something
(2-21,LAW) J & M> You got that right!
(2-2,Freepowder) Sla'n leat Nan!
(2-5,O'Dubhain) Sla'n leat Nan!
(2-12,Trailstalker) nite Nan. Sla'n
(2-21,LAW) FP> Not obscure, means Love and Will.
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) FP> Oh.
(2-2,Freepowder) Beannacht leat too
(2-2,Freepowder) Well I knew it meant something like that, but I always screw it up...
(2-6,Jeremy & Marion) LAW> "Love, luck, and lollipops!" (Pinky & the Brain)
(2-2,Freepowder) I figgered you'd jump in <G>